Is the Order of the Bow Initiate Overpowered?

[der_kluge]

Not to mention the fact that if it's a cleric spell (I assume so), then any undead that gets wasted by 1d6 damage/round is going to be vapourised by the cleric on his first standard action.

And if the party expects undead, then the wizard will probably get in on the action with command undead, control undead and halt undead.

It's not just undead, I think it includes outsiders, and some other things. And the amount of damage varies. And it works just like sunlight. So, not only does it illuminate the entire dungeon, it also takes care of all those pesky undead. And it lasts forever. When my player told me about that, I 'bout crapped a brick.

 

[Pseudonym]

OotBI in 3.5 isn't all that bad in and of itself. The problem I found with one PC was when you combine it with other PrCs and spells from third party suppliments, or even the expansion materials from WotC. Balance is apparently relative to the DMG PrCs and a PHB core class.

 

[BWP]

I still stand by my comment that Book of Exalted Deeds is full of munchkiny goodness. What was that spell... celestial brilliance? Something like 120' radius of daylight lasting hours per level, and just annihilating undead in the AoE. Disgusting.

Sure, if you let 1st level scumbag clerics cast it.

From memory, that's one of the "sanctified" spells. I.E., it's only available at the whim of the gods (i.e., the DM). So if the DM has a problem with it, the players will never even have an opportunity to cast it. And they would only have that opportunity to begin with if they do really, really nifty exalted-type stuff. Which they could only do if the DM wants that as a direction in his game. Do you see the drift here?

The feats and spells in BoVD and BoED are (mostly) extremely powerful compared to feats and spells from other books -- quite deliberately. Any PCs who have access to those feats and spells should not be playing in any ordinary dungeon crawl -- at least, not as a matter of course. And since many of those feats and spells require significant sacrifices on the part of the PC to use, they shouldn't see frequent use even when they are available.

 

[MerricB]

The revised Order of the Bow Initiate is a significantly underpowered class, except in the hands of a scout, where it is just ok. (One shot at a bonus to damage is *nothing* compared to the elemental bow and rapid shots the ranger in my group has).

The old Order of the Bow Initiate was slightly better, but not much so than a multiclass Fighter/Rogue.

Cheers!

 

[Mouseferatu]

Balance is apparently relative to the DMG PrCs and a PHB core class.

I'd argue that it has to be limited to the three core rules.

There's simply no feasible way to test every combination of every option--race, class, spell, magic item, feat, PrC--in every book, with every option in every other book.

So far as I'm concerned, if a book is balanced against the three core rules, the designers have done their job. Combining it with anything else is definitely a case of caveat emptor. Expecting anything else is, frankly, unreasonable.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

As other people have said, the 3.5 OotBI is quite underpowered. The 3.0 version was a good class at the minimum, possibly overpowered, but I never saw it in actual play.

 

[Glyfair]

I'd argue that it has to be limited to the three core rules.

There's simply no feasible way to test every combination of every option--race, class, spell, magic item, feat, PrC--in every book, with every option in every other book.

So far as I'm concerned, if a book is balanced against the three core rules, the designers have done their job. Combining it with anything else is definitely a case of caveat emptor. Expecting anything else is, frankly, unreasonable.

I'd add to the three core books the book that the book something is balanced against should be considered, too. Nothing quite so annoying as to find that in "The Expansion Handbook" you can combine a feat and prestige class and get something overpowered (or even something that's nonsense).

Admittedly, that has a better chance of happening than balance against the core books, especially with WotC. Very often Keith is writing the chapter on feats, Rich the chapter on classes and between revisions, editing and miscommunication, something might slip through. Still, I think a book should be balanced within itself.

Another thing that can be considered is the main campaign book. Certain campaign settings have different balance rules than the core books. Books designed to be part of a campaign setting should be balanced against the core setting book.

 

[genshou]

I've both played characters with OotBI and run games with players who used it, and have never seen it as overpowered. Could someone please point out *why* they think this, so we have a valid argument made on the opposite side?

 

[the Jester]

Chiming in here: the 3.0 version was a bit overpowered. 3.5? It's fine. I don't think it's underpowered; I have one player who plays one in my halfling group, and he's certainly no wuss.

 

[CGoat]

That poster was me, and I admit that I don't know much about that class, but it is often mentioned as being very over-powered. I suspect the CW version is probably toned down from the original one.

I still stand by my comment that Book of Exalted Deeds is full of munchkiny goodness. What was that spell... celestial brilliance? Something like 120' radius of daylight lasting hours per level, and just annihilating undead in the AoE. Disgusting.

Actually it lasts day/level and its not one of the sanctified spells. I believe celestial armor drains 1d4 str to cast. Armor made of blinding light +8 armor bonus and another +4 because your too bright to look at to attack.

But also your celestial brillance is a beacon to bad guys... hey look at the bright spot from miles away... it looks like a well armored band of adventurers lets start positioning our troops for an ambush.