Is the Spiked Chain Fighter really that Cheesy?

[Felix]

Sorry, Maugs are constructs and hence immune to mind affecting spells.

This changes little; that'll take care of the Will saves, but since it has that power as well, there should either be a complimentary weakness or the monster should be thrown at tougher PCs.

How crippling is its LA and racial HD?

If it's large, the ECL* goes up.
If it is immune to all mind-affecting spells, the ECL goes up.
If you dedicate the bulk of your ability increases to Dexterity and Strength without sacrificing any or many of your other stats, the ECL goes up.
If you are not saddled with many sub-par racial HD, the ECL goes up.
If you make up for racial HD and a dearth of feats by adding class levels, the ECL goes up.

Saying that the Maug does not follow any of these forms would be similar to me introducing a monster that had a 1000hp, 30s for all its stats, base 50 move, perfect flying, SR 20+HD, DR 30/--, no LA, unsurvivable melee, ranged, and innate magical attacks, and the darned thing has a CR of 1. It's taking the example ad absurdum, but you can clearly see that my monster is too strong for its CR.

If your Maug's CR represents its abilities and defenses, it will be a survivable encounter for the appropriate PCs, and naturally overwhelming for PCs whose party is too low a level. Focusing its power in melee tripping combat will leave it at the mercy of ranged attacks and non-[Mind-affecting] Will save spells. (And if you throw it at the PCs in an environment where ranged attacks are difficult if not impossible, and the only arcanist is an Enchanter, the EL of the encounter should go up.)

At the point where the monster is too strong for its CR, whether or not it trips anyone is besides the point; the combat style ceases to matter. Tripping will be equally as abusive as a Huge Greatsword wielding Power Attacking Cleave machine: the only novel element introduced by the Tripping Maug as opposed to the Greatsword Maug is tedium.

I should say at this point that if the Maug were considered the forerunner to Warforged, the game designers wisely removed the immunity to all [Mind-affecting] spells.




Also, if you really want to make your PCs cry, attack them with a hybrid Stirge/Black Pudding, where every time you damage a Stirge, they split and voila!, you have a new CON-draining vector. CON-draining: that's terror.






*Since this thread has been mostly about PCs, I used ECL, but CR can easily be substituted in all of those.

 

[Elethiomel]

If your Maug's CR represents its abilities and defenses, it will be a survivable encounter for the appropriate PCs, and naturally overwhelming for PCs whose party is too low a level. Focusing its power in melee tripping combat will leave it at the mercy of ranged attacks and non-[Mind-affecting] Will save spells. (And if you throw it at the PCs in an environment where ranged attacks are difficult if not impossible, and the only arcanist is an Enchanter, the EL of the encounter should go up.)

At the point where the monster is too strong for its CR at whether or not it trips anyone is besides the point; the combat style ceases to matter. Tripping will be equally as abusive as a Huge Greatsword wielding Power Attacking Cleave machine: the only novel element introduced by the Tripping Maug as opposed to the Greatsword Maug is tedium.

I get what you're saying, I really do. But your last statement just wrong - the difference between the tripping Maug and the greatsword Maug is more than tedium. You can get to the greatsword Maug and damage it in melee - and HP are constructs' weakness, because they do not have a CON score. You can not get to the spiked-chain wielding Maug and damage it in melee. It's very nearly impossible, that's how improbable it is. Hence there is a large difference.

And I see the rationale that this (smart feat and gear selection) should increase its CR. I do not, however, agree. I think that character optimisation is not just for PCs. I do agree, however, that you shouldn't just throw this CR10 Maug at any party. You should throw it at players who are decently into optimisation because it will cater to their play style to get around such a tactical, well-built opponent.

I am of the opinion that the CR system is broken and becomes more and more so the higher level you play at. Party composition and individual strengths and weaknesses just matter too much, and any encounter should be analysed for how it interacts with these.

All that said, my example tripper was envisioned to be the most effective tripper I could think of on short notice, while covering up the "achilles heels" of the build as well as possible.

 

[Zelc]

I think a lot of the "Spiked Chain is cheesy" sentiment comes from people looking at an optimal spiked chain build and comparing it to the non-optimized characters that frequent their campaigns. In this sense, I'd agree: the spiked chain build would be overpowered. However, so would most optimized builds. I'd guess the other part of the sentiment comes from the frustration of being locked down as opposed to simply killed very quickly (as other optimized builds often do).

Compared against optimized builds, reach weapons and Stand Still or Improved Trip make the fighter at least somewhat competitive and useful compared to CoDZilla and full casters. There was a thread on the official CharOp forums where someone built a Stand Still + Thicket of Blades lockdown fighter. Even with such an optimized build, it still relied on an item of 1/day Anti-Magic Field to lock down casters, and even then, there were methods of escaping the lock. Some of the suggested methods include Tower Shields to block the AMF emanation or to escape without an AoO, Smokesticks to provide concealment and block AoOs, and an Animal Companion or Elemental Companion grappling you out of the lock. The lockdown build is also far less effective against monsters with reach. I'd say the lockdown build is on par with a mildly-optimized full caster build, especially without the AMF.

Ironically, the revised and possibly improved version of the Lockdown build used a glaive, not a spiked chain. As a Crusader, it couldn't spare the feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

 

[Felix]

You can get to the greatsword Maug and damage it in melee - and HP are constructs' weakness, because they do not have a CON score. You can not get to the spiked-chain wielding Maug and damage it in melee.

The Power Attacking Greatsword wielding Maug will deal more damage, and go through more PCs who think that closing to melee is a good idea, than the Chain wielder. The PCs won't have the hilarious time getting tripped, but how much more hilarious is getting Cloven?

And I see the rationale that this (smart feat and gear selection) should increase its CR. I do not, however, agree. I think that character optimisation is not just for PCs.

Nor do I suggest such. I merely suggest that if you make the NPC more difficult to overcome, the Challenge Rating, designed to reflect the difficulty of overcoming the challenge, should increase. It doesn't mean that NPCs shouldn't optimize, only that DMs should take into consideration how much harder they're making things for the PCs.

A straight-from-the-monster-manual goblin has a CR 1/3. The CR rises when you add levels in Fighter. If you agree that a level 10 goblin fighter shouldn't be a CR 1/3, then what's the significant difference between that and raising the CR of a Maug who takes optimized feats and is only encountered in environments that gives the advantage to the Maug?

I am of the opinion that the CR system is broken and becomes more and more so the higher level you play at.

At first level all parties have a sort of parity. At 15th you can have a wide gulf between one party and the next. Which is why the CR system is "broken" at higher levels: there is no possible way for any system to anticipate the strength and weaknesses of an infinite number of party compositions. Such fine-tuning necessarily must be left to the DM, who is the only one familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of his particular group. The CR system gives the DM a good starting point for NPC challenges, but a DM will feel betrayed if he (erroneously) believes the CR system is a rubber stamp that needs no input from him.

All that said, my example tripper was envisioned to be the most effective tripper I could think of on short notice, while covering up the "achilles heels" of the build as well as possible.

That's just it: the Achilles' heel of tripping is its intended target: small numbers of Small and Medium bipedal creatures. If you confine yourself to always attacking those enemies, you'll be a wunderkind. If you run into wargs, monsterous spiders, giants, centaurs, dwarves, dragons, oozes, waves of zombies and skeletons, stirges, et cetera, on any kind of regular basis, the combat style you spent your resources developing will count for Jack.

And Jack left town.

(The natural response is that parties are made up of small numbers of Small and Medium bipedal creatures. Which would make Tripping a pain in the butt if the DM kept throwing optimized tripper after optimized tripper. Throwing wave after wave of ranged opponents against melee parties would do likewise. Construct after construct against a party of rogues. Only undead against parties lacking clerical support. Tripping is not unique in this regard.)

 

[Elethiomel]

That's just it: the Achilles' heel of tripping is its intended target: small numbers of Small and Medium bipedal creatures. If you confine yourself to always attacking those enemies, you'll be a wunderkind. If you run into wargs, monsterous spiders, giants, centaurs, dwarves, dragons, oozes, waves of zombies and skeletons, stirges, et cetera, on any kind of regular basis, the combat style you spent your resources developing will count for Jack.

Wrong again. I played a PC tripper Maug (though not nearly as monstrous as one with a level in Warmind and using a Spiked Chain to get the disarm cheese on top of it) and have successfully tripped, of the above:
Wargs,
Monstrous spiders,
giants (including Huge ones),
centaurs,
dragons (including Large ones),
and for waves of many monsters, my tripper had 8 AOOs a round. That's beginning to be rather a lot of enemies for one character to keep crowd controlled.

 

[Felix]

I played a PC tripper Maug

May I ask (again) what the LA and racial HD burden of a Maug is?

 

[Elethiomel]

May I ask (again) what the LA and racial HD burden of a Maug is?

2 racial HD, +3 LA

You can find the full stats in the Fiend Folio. Your comments on ECL vs "real power" earlier I took to be rhetorical. I could just as easily have tripped all those different kinds of monsters with a minotaur, ogre, half-giant or other Large race with a high Strength bonus.

 

[Felix]

2 racial HD, +3 LA

You can find the full stats in the Fiend Folio.

As was understood. Don't have the book, though. I did see on the interweb several examples of PC Maugs that were clearly broken. As in, no racial HD and only +1 LA. Which is why I asked. Yours does not seem nearly as unreasonable as those others. I'm confident we can hash this out...

Large. That's +1 LAish.

Huge Stat bonus without accompanying huge penalty. Another +1 LA.

Immunity to every [Mind-affecting] spell. At least +1 LA. I'd not be surprised for consensus to make it more.

So that's the LA taken care of. Any thing else? Construct traits other than the aforementioned immunity? Natural Armor? Bonus to HD based on size? Immunity to Magic? SR? DR?

Your comments on ECL vs "real power" earlier I took to be rhetorical.

Re-read them: ECLs and CRs don't exist in a vacuum. See also the not-CR 1/3 Goblin Fighter 10.

An encounter between an enchanter and 4 low-Wisdom, low-Will save PCs is going to be more difficult than a fighter versus those same PCs because the fighter cannot exploit their weakness.

An encounter with your tripmonster is going to be more difficult in an environment that prohibits ranged attacks.

An EL 10 full of constructs is going to be harder for a party of rogues than an EL 10 of human guards.​

Do you not agree that the circumstances of the fight, and the corresponding strengths and weaknesses of the combatants, will change how hard it is for one group to defeat another? Because if you do, I fail to see why you are reluctant to apply it to your Huge MetaMind Immune-to-[Mind-affecting] Tripping machine.

I could just as easily have tripped all those different kinds of monsters with a minotaur, ogre, half-giant or other Large race with a high Strength bonus.

You had 8 AoO's and enough Strength to trip a Huge Giant. Did your other stats suffer from your focus in Dex and Str? Was the character creation of this Maug extraordinary beyond being allowed to play a Maug in the first place?

I'm following this line of questioning because I believe you have presented an extraordinary case as evidence that a standard mechanic and weapon are broken. The possibility of a CR 1 monster with 1000hp and 30's for stats does not mean CRs are broken; have you considered that your experience with your Maug proves only that the mechanic can be broken instead of necessitating that it is?

Also, do you often play monstrous PCs? Or are the majority of your PCs drawn from the PHB races?

 

[Elethiomel]

As was understood. Don't have the book, though. I did see on the interweb several examples of PC Maugs that were clearly broken. As in, no racial HD and only +1 LA. Which is why I asked. Yours does not seem nearly as unreasonable as those others. I'm confident we can hash this out...

Large. That's +1 LAish.

Huge Stat bonus without accompanying huge penalty. Another +1 LA.

Immunity to every [Mind-affecting] spell. At least +1 LA. I'd not be surprised for consensus to make it more.

So that's the LA taken care of. Any thing else? Construct traits other than the aforementioned immunity? Natural Armor? Bonus to HD based on size? Immunity to Magic? SR? DR?

Then there's no possibility of raising HP based on CON, as he doesn't have one, and you're not counting those two HD of "construct" in there which contribute 0 to any save.
Large is not only positive. I don't see Large as being +1 LA by itself.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with the Maug by itself. But we'll come to that.

Re-read them: ECLs and CRs don't exist in a vacuum. See also the not-CR 1/3 Goblin Fighter 10.

Which I skipped as an irrelevancy because a Goblin Fighter 10 is not CR 1/3 by default, and hence arguing that it isn't is pointless.

An encounter between an enchanter and 4 low-Wisdom, low-Will save PCs is going to be more difficult than a fighter versus those same PCs because the fighter cannot exploit their weakness.

An encounter with your tripmonster is going to be more difficult in an environment that prohibits ranged attacks.

An EL 10 full of constructs is going to be harder for a party of rogues than an EL 10 of human guards.​

Well, point by point:
Yes, but I don't see any point in tailor-making my encounters to my PCs in one way or another, except as fits the theme of the campaign. If all the players decide to roll up characters with low Will saves when I've already decided (as the GM) that all the trouble all over the countryside is brewed up by a high-level enchanter messing with peoples' minds, then that's too bad for the PCs.

I don't see how my tripmonster is so very vurnerable to ranged attacks. He has a reach of 30' if Huge, and that's where you'll find most ranged characters who sneak attack or has point blank shot anyway. Plus, I had in mind gear choices to make ranged attacking harder if I actually put a build together (specifically, the idiotic Animated Shield with the crystal that gives bonus AC against ranged attacks attached).

Finally, yes, EL10 of constructs against a party of rogues is pretty lame. So what? I'm not running a campaing for a party of rogues here. If I was, all encounters would be with buildings that needed entering, marks that needed conning, and the town guard. Now if the campaign was nonspecific and everybody decided to make a rogue *anyway*, sure. That's their problem. Now they can use all their rogue skills to bypass the encounter instead of fighting it (in which case it becomes an "impassable room" problem rather than a "fight" problem - and that method of making an "impassable room" I might well employ in an all-rogue campaign too.)

Do you not agree that the circumstances of the fight, and the corresponding strengths and weaknesses of the combatants, will change how hard it is for one group to defeat another? Because if you do, I fail to see why you are reluctant to apply it to your Huge MetaMind Immune-to-[Mind-affecting] Tripping machine.

Because he's not circumstances, he's an NPC made within the rules. He's optimised, yes, but if the PCs are too, that's fair.

You had 8 AoO's and enough Strength to trip a Huge Giant. Did your other stats suffer from your focus in Dex and Str? Was the character creation of this Maug extraordinary beyond being allowed to play a Maug in the first place?

32 point buy.
And no, I didn't have enough Strength to trip a Huge Giant. I had enough Strength, Feats, Items, and Buffs *put together* to trip a Huge Giant.

I'm following this line of questioning because I believe you have presented an extraordinary case as evidence that a standard mechanic and weapon are broken. The possibility of a CR 1 monster with 1000hp and 30's for stats does not mean CRs are broken; have you considered that your experience with your Maug proves only that the mechanic can be broken instead of necessitating that it is?

Also, do you often play monstrous PCs? Or are the majority of your PCs drawn from the PHB races?

I often play monstrous PCs. I often GM. As a GM, I tailor the challenge to the party as long as the party doesn't do something silly like all walk around with intelligence damage uncured because "they don't need it", or they all roll fighters and expect me never to use any will-save abilities against them. And many of my encounters are decided long before the first character is rolled up anyway.

I haven't presented an extraordinary case as evidence that a standard mechanic and weapon are broken. I don't believe the Trip mechanic is broken. I believe the Spiked Chain is broken because it allows ALL of:
- Attacking at reach distance
- Attacking at normal distance
- Weapon Finesse
- Two-handed 2:1 power attack exchange
- Tripping
- Disarm bonus

No other weapon not inspired by the spiked chain (it has a few derivatives) can do all these things. Granted, it has low base damage. That's not really a concern, as with some optimisation very little of your damage tends to come from the standard base damage of your weapon anyway. It has poor crit range *and* multiplier, which is somewhat of a balancing factor. I still don't think it balances all those things out though. Especially the two first points.

My envisioned build here was made in response to the OP who said, "There have been several threads regarding the Spiked Chain and its lack of sense as well as its supposed "overpoweredness". I'm not so sure this is actually true. I've been fiddling round with a 10th level character to throw at my PCs but for all the supposed smell, I can't find the cheese."

I envisioned a character to optimise the Spiked Chain. To do this, I went with something I knew (Maug tripper build) and poured on some extra cheese. I refused to go with the spiked chain when I originally made my PC Maug tripper, even though it would have cost me less feats, less class levels, and less discussions with my GM regarding what "fighting this way" when two-weapon-fighting means, and given me extra bonuses on top of it.

 

[Felix]

Then there's no possibility of raising HP based on CON, as he doesn't have one, and you're not counting those two HD of "construct" in there which contribute 0 to any save.

I would count those construct HD against all the other benefits I asked you about. I still don't know if they have SR, DR, and other immunities.

Large is not only positive. I don't see Large as being +1 LA by itself.

It certainly isn't +0 LA. Closer to +1, surely. What detriments do you weigh against reach (which factors into your chain-wielding tripmonkey)? -1 AC and Attack? When making a melee build, would you not gladly trade -1 AC and Attack for reach? Should a class ability that is immensely helpful to melee types not be charged +1 LA because it is a hindrance to spellcasters and rogues?

Which I skipped as an irrelevancy because a Goblin Fighter 10 is not CR 1/3 by default, and hence arguing that it isn't is pointless.

Then how does granting Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes to take advantage of the Chain's abilities not change the CR of the Maug? Why would that not increase its CR? What abilities do you think they look at when they calculate CR?

Well, point by point:
Yes, but I don't see any point in tailor-making my encounters to my PCs in one way or another, except as fits the theme of the campaign.

But you see how the challenge presented by the encounter is fluid, and not merely fixed by the CR of the opponent.

I don't see how my tripmonster is so very vurnerable to ranged attacks.

Relative to melee attacks, yes. For the same reason the Terrasque is more vulnerable to ranged attacks. It's not an insta-kill, but I'd rather fight that thing from a distance.

Finally, yes, EL10 of constructs against a party of rogues is pretty lame. So what?

If you change the nature of the encounter, you change the difficulty. You changed your Maug, so why not adjust the EL accordingly?

Because he's not circumstances, he's an NPC made within the rules. He's optimised, yes, but if the PCs are too, that's fair.

So you don't have a problem with allowing the environment in which the PCs fight to affect the EL of the encounter. Why would changing the build of a monster as written not have a similar effect when the CR is calculated based on the monster as written?

32 point buy.

Ok. Was it not a fair question, though?

And no, I didn't have enough Strength to trip a Huge Giant. I had enough Strength, Feats, Items, and Buffs *put together* to trip a Huge Giant.

Fair to say. But if you are only able to do such a heroic thing by the combination of Strength, Feats, Items, and Buffs together, how does this make the Spiked Chain necessarily cheese?

I haven't presented an extraordinary case as evidence that a standard mechanic and weapon are broken. I don't believe the Trip mechanic is broken. I believe the Spiked Chain is broken because it allows ALL of:
- Attacking at reach distance
- Attacking at normal distance
- Weapon Finesse
- Two-handed 2:1 power attack exchange
- Tripping
- Disarm bonus

Attacking at both normal and reach distance costs either a feat or a -4 nonproficiency penalty. Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, 1.

And if you want to take advantage of the AoOs, that costs a feat. Combat Reflexes, 2.​

Weapon Finesse costs a feat. Weapon Finesse, 3.

Two-handed power attack costs a feat. Power Attack, 4.

Tripping is free, unless you want to be good at it, in which case it costs two feats. Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, 5 & 6a

Disarming is free, unless you want to be good at it, in which case it costs two feats. Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, 5 & 6b

If you want to both Trip and Disarm, you get a discount and that's only 3 feats. Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, 5, 6 & 7.

Granted, it has low base damage. That's not really a concern, as with some optimisation very little of your damage tends to come from the standard base damage of your weapon anyway.

Optimization by way of more feats? Perhaps you mean Power Attack and a high Strength? In which case the ability to Finesse the thing counts for nothing.

It has poor crit range *and* multiplier, which is somewhat of a balancing factor. I still don't think it balances all those things out though. Especially the two first points.

It doesn't have to balance out all those things. The options available for the Spiked Chain wielder are legion, but that does not mean that each option does not carry an associated cost; Fighter will be the only class that will make all of those options available.

To effectively use Trip and Disarm, you need INT 13, which honestly is a common dump stat for fighters. It means his WIS will likely not be as high, so he won't be able to bolster his weak Will save.

To make best use of the weapon's reach, Combat Reflexes need be augmented by a high DEX. This will aid his Reflex save, Initiative, and AC; but fighters often do not need a high DEX because of their ability to wear heavy armors, and this also affords the fighter the ability to put that high stat in Con or Wis.

Power Attacking two-handed is nice, but when he does so with a spiked chain, he will crit half as often with smaller dice. This will be mitigated somewhat if he makes a few more attacks because of reach relative to a greatsword, but not so much relative to a glaive.

A fighter with a greatsword who does not spend feats on EWP, Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip can better afford Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical. Were they to both Power Attack, the greatsword will more likely hit (or hit harder): [+1 attack or +2 damage from another point of BAB via Weapon Focus]; will hit harder (+2 damage via Weapon Specialization); and will crit ~4 times as often. He'll also be ready to pick up the Improved versions of WF and WS.​

My envisioned build here was made in response to the OP who said, "There have been several threads regarding the Spiked Chain and its lack of sense as well as its supposed "overpoweredness". I'm not so sure this is actually true. I've been fiddling round with a 10th level character to throw at my PCs but for all the supposed smell, I can't find the cheese."

Your 10th level Maug Fighter 5 Spiked Chain Tripper will have 6d10+10 HP (avg 43hp). A 10th level Fireball does 35 points of damage on a failed save. And your base saves are Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +1. There are ways of protecting yourself from this common 3rd level spell, but the party will have to spend resources in doing so. Hardly any cheese there. Unless it's a Oscar Mayer Cheese-filled Glass Cannon.

I refused to go with the spiked chain when I originally made my PC Maug tripper, even though it would have cost me less feats, less class levels, and less discussions with my GM regarding what "fighting this way" when two-weapon-fighting means, and given me extra bonuses on top of it.

Compared to Two Weapon Fighting, a Power Attacking Greatsword looks like cheese. I don't see how this should reflect poorly on the Spiked Chain.

-----------------

Simpler question:

How is your ECL 10 Maug tripmonkey significantly less cheesy (not that I think it is, but you do) when equipped with a Guisarme and corresponding feats as opposed to a Spiked Chain?