Is the Spiked Chain Fighter really that Cheesy?

[Elethiomel]

I would count those construct HD against all the other benefits I asked you about. I still don't know if they have SR, DR, and other immunities.

They have SR, they do not have DR, they have standard construct immunities.

It certainly isn't +0 LA. Closer to +1, surely. What detriments do you weigh against reach (which factors into your chain-wielding tripmonkey)? -1 AC and Attack? When making a melee build, would you not gladly trade -1 AC and Attack for reach? Should a class ability that is immensely helpful to melee types not be charged +1 LA because it is a hindrance to spellcasters and rogues?

Because each feature need not be charged an integer LA cost. You can charge it .85 LA and then round up once all your LA adjustments are added together. This is more reasonable than considering each feature either 0, 1, or 2 LA, surely?

Then how does granting Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes to take advantage of the Chain's abilities not change the CR of the Maug? Why would that not increase its CR? What abilities do you think they look at when they calculate CR?

Because like the Gnome Fighter 10 who is not CR 1/3, the Maug has class levels to gain all those feats and the CR adjustments for class levels are already set down in the rules. So you don't need to look at what feats it has to judge its CR, just its levels.

But you see how the challenge presented by the encounter is fluid, and not merely fixed by the CR of the opponent.

Yes. I have never disagreed with this. I only disagree that an optimised opponent facing an optimised party should have a CR adjustment merely because it is optimised.

Relative to melee attacks, yes. For the same reason the Terrasque is more vulnerable to ranged attacks. It's not an insta-kill, but I'd rather fight that thing from a distance.

Fortunately for the Maug, it is smart enough not to allow people to fight it at a distance for long.

If you change the nature of the encounter, you change the difficulty. You changed your Maug, so why not adjust the EL accordingly?

Oh, I did. I changed his CR when I gave him levels

So you don't have a problem with allowing the environment in which the PCs fight to affect the EL of the encounter. Why would changing the build of a monster as written not have a similar effect when the CR is calculated based on the monster as written?

See above regarding levels.

Ok. Was it not a fair question, though?

Maybe. I didn't think the question was very good seeing as you're harping on the Maug. If I'd only spent some time and effort into setting up another build, I might not have had to sit here and defend the maug ad nauseam.

Fair to say. But if you are only able to do such a heroic thing by the combination of Strength, Feats, Items, and Buffs together, how does this make the Spiked Chain necessarily cheese?

I did not use the spiked chain in those instances

Optimization by way of more feats? Perhaps you mean Power Attack and a high Strength? In which case the ability to Finesse the thing counts for nothing.

Wrong. If you want to optimise for AC and to-hit at once while neglecting damage directly from stats, you can get STR 13 and then get your DEX into the sky and take Weapon Finesse and Power Attack. The Spiked Chain is the only weapon with which you can use your DEX to hit while getting saucy returns from Power Attack.

It doesn't have to balance out all those things. The options available for the Spiked Chain wielder are legion, but that does not mean that each option does not carry an associated cost; Fighter will be the only class that will make all of those options available.

Yes, most of those carry an associated cost to do well. That doesn't mean the options aren't there if you want to do them without any special advantage (you know, except having a reach weapon which allows trip and gives a bonus to disarm thereby negating the biggest drawback of *not* having the feat, the attack of opportunity).

To effectively use Trip and Disarm, you need INT 13, which honestly is a common dump stat for fighters. It means his WIS will likely not be as high, so he won't be able to bolster his weak Will save.

See above.

To make best use of the weapon's reach, Combat Reflexes need be augmented by a high DEX. This will aid his Reflex save, Initiative, and AC; but fighters often do not need a high DEX because of their ability to wear heavy armors, and this also affords the fighter the ability to put that high stat in Con or Wis.

Yes, for your standard fighter that may be true. That doesn't negate the cheese I explained above.

Power Attacking two-handed is nice, but when he does so with a spiked chain, he will crit half as often with smaller dice. This will be mitigated somewhat if he makes a few more attacks because of reach relative to a greatsword, but not so much relative to a glaive.

Everyone on these forums seem to be very much concentrating on damage. I think you underestimate the power of having all your opponents be prone and without a weapon.

A fighter with a greatsword who does not spend feats on EWP, Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip can better afford Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Critical. Were they to both Power Attack, the greatsword will more likely hit (or hit harder): [+1 attack or +2 damage from another point of BAB via Weapon Focus]; will hit harder (+2 damage via Weapon Specialization); and will crit ~4 times as often. He'll also be ready to pick up the Improved versions of WF and WS.​

See above.

Your 10th level Maug Fighter 5 Spiked Chain Tripper will have 6d10+10 HP (avg 43hp). A 10th level Fireball does 35 points of damage on a failed save. And your base saves are Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +1. There are ways of protecting yourself from this common 3rd level spell, but the party will have to spend resources in doing so. Hardly any cheese there. Unless it's a Oscar Mayer Cheese-filled Glass Cannon.

Congratulations! After many posts, you finally found the real achilles heel of the build. Sure, SR helps a little, but not nearly enough. And Orbs make Maugs cry. It's +20 for being a Large construct, btw. Oh, and this was one of the reasons my PC maug picked up 2 levels of Monk.

Compared to Two Weapon Fighting, a Power Attacking Greatsword looks like cheese. I don't see how this should reflect poorly on the Spiked Chain.

You have no idea about the context of those discussions: I was a Monk Maug with a Guisarme. Having both my Guisarme and Unarmed Strike available to fight with, I and the GM looked at Two-Weapon Fighting and had a discussion, the conclusion of which was that "Fighting this way" with two-weapon fighting referred to getting extra attacks with the "off hand" weapon, not substituting either weapon in a full attack, for example. Thus our conclusion was that my Maug did not have to take Two-Weapon Fighting to have both the Unarmed Strike and the Guisarme ready to attack at the same time. (monks can freely attack with other body parts than their hands).

Simpler question:

How is your ECL 10 Maug tripmonkey significantly less cheesy (not that I think it is, but you do) when equipped with a Guisarme and corresponding feats as opposed to a Spiked Chain?

My ECL 10 Maug Tripmonkey (who is a PC, as he has ECL 10 rather than CR 10; this is a significant difference) cannot in the event of someone actually *getting* to melee range just take a 5-foot-step away and trip-disarm them to render them unable to hurt him in melee next turn. He must move significantly further and has +2 less to his Disarm checks. The big hole in his reach that (if he is Huge) extends 15 feet from him where he can attack nothing is a big weakness.

 

[Felix]

They have SR, they do not have DR, they have standard construct immunities.

Standard construct traits like the inability to heal via Cure spells?

Because each feature need not be charged an integer LA cost. You can charge it .85 LA and then round up once all your LA adjustments are added together. This is more reasonable than considering each feature either 0, 1, or 2 LA, surely?

I wonder how accurately "+1 LAish" describes +.85 LA.

Because like the Gnome Fighter 10 who is not CR 1/3, the Maug has class levels to gain all those feats and the CR adjustments for class levels are already set down in the rules. So you don't need to look at what feats it has to judge its CR, just its levels.

Yes. I have never disagreed with this. I only disagree that an optimised opponent facing an optimised party should have a CR adjustment merely because it is optimised.

Fortunately for the Maug, it is smart enough not to allow people to fight it at a distance for long.

Good for the Maug. But it's more vulnerable to ranged attacks (like the 3rd level Fireball that' so terrifying) than it is to melee attacks. Is there something you dislike about this?

Oh, I did. I changed his CR when I gave him levels

And kept the feat it was given for its 2 racial HD? Well alright then.

Maybe. I didn't think the question was very good seeing as you're harping on the Maug. If I'd only spent some time and effort into setting up another build, I might not have had to sit here and defend the maug ad nauseam.

You suggested that a Maug Spiked Chain tripper would cause PCs to run to momma. If the Maug has absurd abilities that make it more powerful than its CR warrants, then the reason PCs would run to momma would be inherent in the Maug and not because of the Spiked Chain.

If the Spiked Chain is broken, it shouldn't need a Construct from the Fiend Folio, a level in a Psionic Class, and, like your tripper Maug, a coordination between Items, Buffs, et al in order to prove it.

I did not use the spiked chain in those instances

Exactly. Thank you for noting how you can do silly things like trip Huge Giants without resorting to the "cheese" of the spiked chain.

Wrong. If you want to optimise for AC and to-hit at once while neglecting damage directly from stats, you can get STR 13 and then get your DEX into the sky and take Weapon Finesse and Power Attack. The Spiked Chain is the only weapon with which you can use your DEX to hit while getting saucy returns from Power Attack.

Hey, if you want to spend 3 feats (Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, and Exotic Weapon Prof) to do something a PC with a guisarme and heavy armor can do automatically, by all means. I wouldn't accuse it of being optimized, though.

Seriously, in this example, you'll be able to either hit easily or hit hard depending on how much you Power Attack. The guy with the guisiarme and heavy armor will have the AC, the attack bonus and the damage. He likely won't move as far, but a lockdown build doesn't rely on lots of movement.


Going to a flag football game, but...

More to Come!

Yes, most of those carry an associated cost to do well. That doesn't mean the options aren't there if you want to do them without any special advantage (you know, except having a reach weapon which allows trip and gives a bonus to disarm thereby negating the biggest drawback of *not* having the feat, the attack of opportunity).


See above.



Yes, for your standard fighter that may be true. That doesn't negate the cheese I explained above.


Everyone on these forums seem to be very much concentrating on damage. I think you underestimate the power of having all your opponents be prone and without a weapon.



See above.



Congratulations! After many posts, you finally found the real achilles heel of the build. Sure, SR helps a little, but not nearly enough. And Orbs make Maugs cry. It's +20 for being a Large construct, btw. Oh, and this was one of the reasons my PC maug picked up 2 levels of Monk.



You have no idea about the context of those discussions: I was a Monk Maug with a Guisarme. Having both my Guisarme and Unarmed Strike available to fight with, I and the GM looked at Two-Weapon Fighting and had a discussion, the conclusion of which was that "Fighting this way" with two-weapon fighting referred to getting extra attacks with the "off hand" weapon, not substituting either weapon in a full attack, for example. Thus our conclusion was that my Maug did not have to take Two-Weapon Fighting to have both the Unarmed Strike and the Guisarme ready to attack at the same time. (monks can freely attack with other body parts than their hands).



My ECL 10 Maug Tripmonkey (who is a PC, as he has ECL 10 rather than CR 10; this is a significant difference) cannot in the event of someone actually *getting* to melee range just take a 5-foot-step away and trip-disarm them to render them unable to hurt him in melee next turn. He must move significantly further and has +2 less to his Disarm checks. The big hole in his reach that (if he is Huge) extends 15 feet from him where he can attack nothing is a big weakness.

 

[Elethiomel]

Standard construct traits like the inability to heal via Cure spells?

Of course.

I wonder how accurately "+1 LAish" describes +.85 LA.

.85 LA was an example figure.

Good for the Maug. But it's more vulnerable to ranged attacks (like the 3rd level Fireball that' so terrifying) than it is to melee attacks. Is there something you dislike about this?

Stop the psychoanalysis already.

And kept the feat it was given for its 2 racial HD? Well alright then.

No. I would not consider switching the feat an intelligent creature gets for its racial HD to have an impact on its CR.

You suggested that a Maug Spiked Chain tripper would cause PCs to run to momma. If the Maug has absurd abilities that make it more powerful than its CR warrants, then the reason PCs would run to momma would be inherent in the Maug and not because of the Spiked Chain.

If the Spiked Chain is broken, it shouldn't need a Construct from the Fiend Folio, a level in a Psionic Class, and, like your tripper Maug, a coordination between Items, Buffs, et al in order to prove it.

Exactly. Thank you for noting how you can do silly things like trip Huge Giants without resorting to the "cheese" of the spiked chain.

I did not make this build to prove that the spiked chain was broken. I wanted to provide the OP with a build that would maximise the cheese of the spiked chain by using other cheese along with it.

Hey, if you want to spend 3 feats (Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, and Exotic Weapon Prof) to do something a PC with a guisarme and heavy armor can do automatically, by all means. I wouldn't accuse it of being optimized, though.

The weapon-finesse spiked chain wielder can't use his spiked chain to trip very well, so the guisarme comparison is void. Yes, this means that one of the many options the spiked chain gives is mutually exclusive with one other option. Let me state clearly what I think is broken with the spiked chain: It allows attacks at reach-range and at nonreach-range at the same time. If you want the "most broken" bit, that's it right there.

 

[Corsair]

I'm not entirely sure why this Maug is such a problem.


Fighter: Oh noes! a Maugtripmonkey!

Wizard: Really? (*knowledge arcana roll*) That thing has a crappy will save normally. ~~GLITTERDUST~~

Cleric: Oh no, I can't tell if it made its save or not. Just to be safe... ~~OBSCURING MIST~~ *closes with Maug's last known location*

Fighter: Thanks team! *moves into the mist towards the possibly blind Maug who can't see them through the mist to trip them anyways*

 

[Zelc]

If you think the spiked chain is so broken, then tell me why one of the most optimized lockdown builds uses a longspear.

Honestly, lockdown builds allow tanks to actually meet their job description and keep the monsters away from the squishies. There is almost no incentive for a monster to attack a normal tank. They can just move around him and kill the casters. Lockdown builds tend to be everyone's best friend, allowing the rest of the party to shine while keeping them safe and setting up monsters for kills.

By the way, if you think lockdown builds are overpowered, tell me what you think of the Web + Solid Fog combo. Or Wall of Thorns. Or Black Tentacles. Or Entangle. Or Kelpstrand (ok this one is very powerful).

 

[Felix]

It allows attacks at reach-range and at nonreach-range at the same time. If you want the "most broken" bit, that's it right there.

Relative to polearms
Costs: 1 feat or -4 non-proficiency penalty; sub-standard damage; sub-standard crit range and multiplier; Piercing damage.

Benefit: No need to take a 5-foot step; harder to Sunder.

I can see where not needing to move can be beneficial; yes, being able to attack at both 10' and 5' is handy; it's nice when your weapon doesn't break when you fight a Blackguard; but to consider the spiked chain broken you have to look at the costs and benefits and judge that the benefits far outweigh the costs.

It's much like the 3.0 monk: at first blush everyone thought it was overpowered because it got something at every level; the monk in play didn't live up to that judgment because of the costs associated with all those assorted benefits. Neither does the Spiked Chain.

 

[Tetsubo]

If you think the spiked chain is so broken, then tell me why one of the most optimized lockdown builds uses a longspear.

Honestly, lockdown builds allow tanks to actually meet their job description and keep the monsters away from the squishies. There is almost no incentive for a monster to attack a normal tank. They can just move around him and kill the casters. Lockdown builds tend to be everyone's best friend, allowing the rest of the party to shine while keeping them safe and setting up monsters for kills.

By the way, if you think lockdown builds are overpowered, tell me what you think of the Web + Solid Fog combo. Or Wall of Thorns. Or Black Tentacles. Or Entangle. Or Kelpstrand (ok this one is very powerful).

I would never allow such a "lockdown build" in any campaign I ran. I wouldn't play any such build even if it were allowed in a campaign I played in. Such builds are just silly.

 

[Victim]

Polearm plus armor spikes (when 5 ft stepping is unavailable) can already allow for attacks at 10' and 5'.

 

[Zelc]

I would never allow such a "lockdown build" in any campaign I ran. I wouldn't play any such build even if it were allowed in a campaign I played in. Such builds are just silly.

The point isn't whether you'd allow this build in a campaign or not, the point is lockdown builds don't require having a spiked chain. This build is perhaps the most optimal fighter lockdown build, and it does so with a longspear. If the spiked chain is as broken as you say, why did the well-known optimizer behind this build choose not to use it?

And if you don't allow the multiclassing, would you allow a Fighter 20?

2- EWP Spiked Chain. Alternatively, Short Haft and use a glaive so you can set against a charge for double dmg. Picked the chain for the easy area threat. ALTERNATE: Take a big piercing polearm (guisarme or longspear) and wear SPiked Gauntlets. This frees up a feat while allowing you to threaten near and far, letting you take Power Attack or (wait for it!) WEAPON SUPREMACY! Note that with Adaptive, all your Weapon Focus chain could apply to your Gauntlets, too, including Supremacy. You also become hell against a charge...and hey, Lances do piercing dmg, too, don't they?

 

[Elethiomel]

Relative to polearms
Costs: 1 feat or -4 non-proficiency penalty; sub-standard damage; sub-standard crit range and multiplier; Piercing damage.

Benefit: No need to take a 5-foot step; harder to Sunder.

I can see where not needing to move can be beneficial; yes, being able to attack at both 10' and 5' is handy; it's nice when your weapon doesn't break when you fight a Blackguard; but to consider the spiked chain broken you have to look at the costs and benefits and judge that the benefits far outweigh the costs.

It's much like the 3.0 monk: at first blush everyone thought it was overpowered because it got something at every level; the monk in play didn't live up to that judgment because of the costs associated with all those assorted benefits. Neither does the Spiked Chain.

I still disagree. Look at your analysis again when you throw Enlarge Person into the picture. An Enlarged person does not have the easy "just a 5-foot step and the enemy will be in reach" solution that you posit as generally applicable above.


Also, for others: Lockdown builds without the spiked chain are obviously very viable. However, other feats and/or class abilities being cheesy does not prevent the Spiked Chain being cheesy.