FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
Seems to me like a variant human warlock with ritual caster and pact of the chain could have his cake and eat it too
It's also not just the hands - imps can speak!
D&D 5E Is the Warlock the Best Class?
Seems to me like a variant human warlock with ritual caster and pact of the chain could have his cake and eat it too
It's also not just the hands - imps can speak!
Sword of Spirit
Legend
Actually, the Variant: Familiars sidebar in the MM indicates that NPCs who can cast find familiar might have a familiar, which could be a spirit like from the spell, or a crawling claw, imp, quasit, pseudodragon, sprite, or some other tiny creature. (That's all of the Pact of the Chain options plus crawling claw and "others".)
This doesn't say that the NPC uses find familiar in connection with those creatures becoming it's familiar, but the fact that it references them having the spell at all really suggests that the spell has something to do with it.
Here's something from AL that might give a better idea of what they were thinking with all of these unclear statements:
That precedent allows you to cast a find familiar spell on a willing existing creature (rather than summoning a spirit with the spell), and then the creature follows at least some of the rules under the spell--such as being only discorporated when reduced to 0 hp and able to be resummoned by casting the spell again.
I think that example should be used to make sense of the information in the MM--because it can make consistent sense of it. So here's how I would run the rule to combine all this material together:
As an alternative to its normal usage, you can cast the find familiar spell on any willing tiny creature that the DM approves. At minimum the list should include the specific creatures who have familiar sidebars in the MM, and the additional creature or two mentioned in the Variant: Familiars sidebar. That creature is now bound to you as a familiar, and, other than causing it to change shape into a different familiar, it follows all the familiar rules in the spell, such as being able to be resummoned if reduced to 0 hp, be sent to an extradimensional space, etc. If the creature has a sidebar about using it as a familiar, those additional aspects also apply (those creatures just make especially good familiars).
I can't actually think of any reason not to interpret it like that, other than thinking it makes familiars too powerful or something. It makes the game more interesting and allows interesting concepts. And remember the downside that these special familiars have wills of their own and can terminate the bond at any time (I'd assume that should apply to any familiar that isn't just a summoned spirit). And finally, if you don't do something like that you have orphaned rules and precedents sitting there in the MM looking at you funny.
The only issue becomes how to keep Pact of the Chain familiars special. It's already pretty cool in that it is a spirit that can switch between those alternative familiar forms. But I would absolutely give it the extra abilities listed for any special familiars in the MM when in those forms. (That's contrary to Sage Advice, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make to make sense of the rules. And Sage Advice advises you to ignore Sage Advice if it doesn't work for you.) Personally, I'd also extend it to say it can take any other forms from the MM than that DM would allow to become familiars. That's all in the realm of interpretation.
As an outright house rule that contradicts the books, I'd say that all familiars (including the summoned spirits in animal forms right from the spell description) can attack normally. There is no good reason--it's not like their attacks are significant. For the Pact of the Chain, I'd say that when warlock gives them an attack, that attack (which uses their reaction according to the most up to date rules), is in addition to their normal actions or attacks.
And that is how it's done.
Attachments
A variety of comments from Ssge Advice JEC - obviously these may be considered ot not by any GM.Actually, the Variant: Familiars sidebar in the MM indicates that NPCs who can cast find familiar might have a familiar, which could be a spirit like from the spell, or a crawling claw, imp, quasit, pseudodragon, sprite, or some other tiny creature. (That's all of the Pact of the Chain options plus crawling claw and "others".)
This doesn't say that the NPC uses find familiar in connection with those creatures becoming it's familiar, but the fact that it references them having the spell at all really suggests that the spell has something to do with it.
Here's something from AL that might give a better idea of what they were thinking with all of these unclear statements:
That precedent allows you to cast a find familiar spell on a willing existing creature (rather than summoning a spirit with the spell), and then the creature follows at least some of the rules under the spell--such as being only discorporated when reduced to 0 hp and able to be resummoned by casting the spell again.
I think that example should be used to make sense of the information in the MM--because it can make consistent sense of it. So here's how I would run the rule to combine all this material together:
As an alternative to its normal usage, you can cast the find familiar spell on any willing tiny creature that the DM approves. At minimum the list should include the specific creatures who have familiar sidebars in the MM, and the additional creature or two mentioned in the Variant: Familiars sidebar. That creature is now bound to you as a familiar, and, other than causing it to change shape into a different familiar, it follows all the familiar rules in the spell, such as being able to be resummoned if reduced to 0 hp, be sent to an extradimensional space, etc. If the creature has a sidebar about using it as a familiar, those additional aspects also apply (those creatures just make especially good familiars).
I can't actually think of any reason not to interpret it like that, other than thinking it makes familiars too powerful or something. It makes the game more interesting and allows interesting concepts. And remember the downside that these special familiars have wills of their own and can terminate the bond at any time (I'd assume that should apply to any familiar that isn't just a summoned spirit). And finally, if you don't do something like that you have orphaned rules and precedents sitting there in the MM looking at you funny.
The only issue becomes how to keep Pact of the Chain familiars special. It's already pretty cool in that it is a spirit that can switch between those alternative familiar forms. But I would absolutely give it the extra abilities listed for any special familiars in the MM when in those forms. (That's contrary to Sage Advice, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make to make sense of the rules. And Sage Advice advises you to ignore Sage Advice if it doesn't work for you.) Personally, I'd also extend it to say it can take any other forms from the MM than that DM would allow to become familiars. That's all in the realm of interpretation.
As an outright house rule that contradicts the books, I'd say that all familiars (including the summoned spirits in animal forms right from the spell description) can attack normally. There is no good reason--it's not like their attacks are significant. For the Pact of the Chain, I'd say that when warlock gives them an attack, that attack (which uses their reaction according to the most up to date rules), is in addition to their normal actions or attacks.
And that is how it's done.
The find familiar spell lists the forms that the familiar can assume. Pixie and imp aren't on that list. A warlock with Pact of the Chain gets a longer list.
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If you'd like to bond with a pixie or an imp, you need to befriend the creature or somehow bind it to your service. #DnD …
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If a monster has a variant rule for being a spellcaster's familiar, that variant is in the monster book that contains the critter. For examples, check out the pseudodragon and the quasit in the "Monster Manual."
Those variants have no bearing on the find familiar spell. #DnD
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I fo understand that AL needs to have there rules setup for multi-dm disconnected csampaign play, but that does not imo carty much weight ehdn trying to use them as a basis for what the default rules are.
I doubt anyone here would use any of the AL treasure rules as support for what the game says about those topics in an actual game.
Besides the above AL creature is defining how Familiar works for it. Imps, quasits, pseudo, etc have their own boxes and do not say they get back from dead.
But as always, GMs ruling are table specific and can draw on anything. "Well, I like how Thundarr did it..." is fine as long as a table likes it.
But to me, outside of Find Familiar, we have rules for what happens at 0 hp for various creatures and if being a familiar meant quick returns from the dead why seems like pseudo dragons would be flocking around every wizard sorcerer or even just fairly bright farmhand trying to get a lifeline.
Suddenly I have an image of an adventure where pseudogpdragons create an adventure, a rescue or promised reward, to bring in adventurers and st the end thry find Finding Dori seagull like swarm of pseudo dragons shouting "pick me, pick me, pick me" bartering deals for their lifelines!!!
Or maybe, it's for a room full of Imps and a Halloween episode?!?
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ccs
41st lv DM
Oh. So I've been doing it wrong all these years/editions/assorted game systems?
Because the vast majority of my characters - whatever the system we're playing , be it 5e, PF, SW, Cthulu, superheroes, etc - start with an idea/maybe about 6 lines of text, & then I go looking for rules to enable that.
Concept is the whole reason I pick the rules I do when making the character.
And do not mistake me as saying the rules don't matter. They do. They just aren't where I usually start from.
ccs
41st lv DM
LoL.
Seems to me like a variant human warlock with ritual caster and pact of the chain could have his cake and eat it too
Sure, but then he or she needs the stat req for the feat (minor), is down a feat the tomelock would have also going variant human, only gets rituals from the one class instead of all classes, and doesn't get the bonus cantrips. He does open up an invocation and has a different set of class invocations based on subclasses from which to draw. There's tradeoffs to be had instead of handing over one benefit to the other.
Book of ancient secrets is better than the ritual caster feat because of the "any class" rule. It also adds this tidbit that often gets overlooked: "You can also cast a warlock spell you know as a ritual if it has the ritual tag." That turns the warlock into a ritual caster AND gives a better version of the ritual caster feat. Warlocks only have 4 ritual spells so it's not exactly a huge deal, but at least it gives a reason to take unseen servant. ;-)
What you describe is my expectation on how a player does get both. I'm a fan of taking the feat if someone wants rituals. I keep the find familiar spell simple and do not allow the special familiars (I consider that an NPC special adjustment and not a spell option). Gots ta be a chainlock to get that option in my games. ;-)
Sword of Spirit
Legend
Jeremy Crawford is the authoritative rules source...but he doesn't always agree with himself. He also almost always just states what he thinks RAW say, rather than any sort of implications of what that means, or even what the written intent was.
For instance, if we were to ask, "Does the 'Variant: Familiars' box in the MM imply that the spell find familiar is somehow used to gain those variant familiars?", Mr. Crawford would likely respond with something like:
"The find familiar spell lists the familars it grants in its description. The variant in the MM specifies familiars that the DM might grant an NPC with access to the find familiar spell."
If we were lucky, he might respond to a further question with:
"By default, the find familiar spell isn't used to bond variant familiars. A DM might decide to allow PCs or NPCs to gain the benefits of the find familiar spell with a variant familiar, but this would be a house-rule."
Early in the edition, Jeremy Crawford's tweets were really useful. At this point, he has pretty much covered the vast majority of questions about the PHB (sometimes reversing his rulings), and therefore his answers are less useful.
The basic premise I'm coming from is creating a consistent world. If all you get with a pseudodragon "familiar" is the boxed text, all you're going to have is a dead pseudodragon pretty quickly. It is both more reasonable, and more consistent with the "Variant: Familiars" box in the NPC section at the back, to allow the find familiar spell to bind that pseudodragon as a real familiar. This is induction here, not deduction. In 5e you have to use induction, because there is often not a clear chain of valid logic connecting the rules elements. That AL certificate is a precedent (not a rule) that supports this ruling. Since it works for both PCs and NPCs, there is little downside to allowing it to work that way in a campaign. It's kind of funny how I seem to find myself on opposite sides of the player empowerment / DM empowerment discussion depending on the particular issue. This is an issue where I'm firmly in the camp that a player ought to be able to have that sort of option.
Salthorae
Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
That's basically what he did say
The variant familiar rule options are extremely powerful and also come with the caveat that it isn't some random spirit that has taken the form of whatever creature you've chosen, but actually one of those creatures.
A familiar called with Find Familiar doesn't have any choice in its service. The variant options can at any time and for any reason break its service and leave.
That is a big difference and I don't see the need to have consistency between the two. One is a spirit you bind into a form, while the other is one of those real creatures.
I'm not saying that PC's shouldn't have access to the variant options necessarily, but to me, it should be roleplayed, and not just an always-on option. An agreement/pact sealed to get one of the real variant options as a familiar with the full knowledge that you could lose the services of it at any moment for any reason is probably good enough reason to allow the extra powers from those variants.
Sword of Spirit
Legend
Yeah, that's what I encourage. You have to actually find the creature, get it to talk with you, get it to like you, make the bond with it, and then keep it liking you. That's no more a given than finding a belt of giant strength. What I encourage though, is allowing the creature to then actually benefit from the find familiar spell, because otherwise it is going to die all the time, and end up being a liability once you're higher than 3rd or 4th level.
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