Is The Web Spell Broken?

[ThirdWizard]

You might gently remind him that he is never required to cast a spell at the highest possible caster level. He may choose the minimum.

He knows sadly...
In the popular web-comic 8-bit theater, Black Mage has access to 1-9th level spells. However, he is loathe to cast an 8th or lower level spell. He's kind of like that. Except he revels in friendly fire. Now, if he were to be caught in his own fireball for instance, then we might be seeing a different color...

(I should point out that its all in fun, and the other players don't mind for some crazy reason. It might have something to do with the fact that half of them have not yet been the target of his miniacle machinations and so find it funny as well. But, they're all good sports. Even the barbarian. )

I think you should have used the Web spell because you should always use the best tactics that NPCs can "think of".

I typically do agree with that sentement.

I havn't actually run the game yet, but I did look over some things, and the hobgoblins in question are using very good tactics and in all circumstances have the terrain advantages. I'm even going to use grease to try and make PCs slip down a slope into some fire pits. With the odds already stacked agasint them, I'm hesitant to go "all out."

Against web, assuming they make their save, they have to use a round to retrieve and light a torch. The next round they can use said torch to burn away the square they're in. The next round they can do it again, etc. Assuming the web cannot be circumnavigated, which in this case it could not be, someone in the back might have to actually move through six or more squares before being free. If it is the Favored Soul, that's seven rounds without healing. That's a long time. In this case, though, they'd be lucky they have a FS instead of a Cleric (good reflex saves).

All in all, if web were a 3rd level spell, I can still see reason to prepare it. Especially for PCs fighting most monsters. Centered on a monster, it has to make a DC 30 Str check to make it out in one round if it makes the Fort save. Not a whole lotta monsters can do that. I do like the sound of that modifier for size house rule, though. I might consider using that, though it would screw small characters.

 

[Caliban]

That's how we've run it as well.

"Any fire can set the webs alight".

If a square of web is burning, it's 'any fire', right?

-Hyp.

It also clearly states that it takes 1 round to clear 5' of webs if you are using a torch or flaming sword. It does not say that the webs continue to burn on their own.

 

[KarinsDad]

It also clearly states that it takes 1 round to clear 5' of webs if you are using a torch or flaming sword. It does not say that the webs continue to burn on their own.

"Any fire can set the webs alight and burn away 5 square feet in 1 round."

Our assumption here is that the fire from the "next 5 feet over" is equivalent to "any fire".

From this sentence from the spell, a single tindertwig or candle is enough to set 5 square feet ablaze in a round. The fire output of a torch or flaming sword is not needed, but can be used instead.

So, it does not make too much sense that a tindertwig can set an entire 5 feet by 5 feet ablaze in a round, but the burning web is NOT enough to set the next 5 feet by 5 feet ablaze.

It does not explicitly call it out, but it makes more sense to interpret that it does set the next 5 feet ablaze then it does not based on what is written.

And, it also makes Web less potent against fire using / emitting creatures.

 

[Fieari]

I've had a problem with web recently. My campaign currently has a negative McGuffin, in that the players are running away from a particularly scary thing... namely, a Shadow Mob (30+ shadows all moving together, acting together, etc). Now, this is supposed to scare the living daylights out of the players, and it was understandable when the sorcerer asked to take... I think it's called "Transdimensional Spell" metamagic, which lets spells effect incorporeal creatures as if they were corporeal. I figured that a transdimensional lightning bolt or whatever would be a nice edge, but still not enough to actually break the McGuffin, especially since as long as one shadow excapes any encounter, it can come back full strength later on to terrorize some more whenever I need the McGuffin to do its work.

And then came along Transdimensional Web. Which made the shadows practically a laughing matter. Shadows have no strength score, and no escape artist ranks (though I quickly fudged some in)... even if they make the save, they still can't move nearly fast enough. These guys are supposed to CHASE my characters around the world. But now, anytime they show up, the players can just web the things up and proceed with whatever they were doing more or less casually.

I kinda like the house rule mentioned, about being able to move half your normal movement rate on a successful ref save. I think I'll implement that. That way, if the shadows fail the save, the players get to have a sigh of relief, but if they make the save, then there's still some cause for concern.

 

[Caliban]

"Any fire can set the webs alight and burn away 5 square feet in 1 round."

Our assumption here is that the fire from the "next 5 feet over" is equivalent to "any fire".

That is the assumption that I disagree with. I think you are reading to much into the spell at this point, and it doesn't match with what I've seen of burning webs in real life.

Webs are not substantial enough to catch on fire and keep burning on their own. You have to keep applying fire for it to continue burning.

Also, the rules generally spell out when something can catch fire and continue burning. Since the web spell doesn't do this, it is most likely not the way it works.

I've certainly never seen it ruled this way.

According to you guys, the Web spell is automatically nullified in one to two rounds by a single torch. I really don't think so.

 

[Jack Simth]

A single fireball, targeted at the center of the web, should completely destroy the web -

Fireball:

Area: 20-ft.-radius spread

Web:

Effect: Webs in a 20-ft.-radius spread

Note that they have the exact same radius spread - you have a fire effect that exactly covers the entire web, and the web is flammable - it burns away, in full, in a single round (unless someone Widens it or something... in which case, the solution is to Widen the Fireball too).

A minimum fireball will do 5d6 damage for a Wiz, 6d6 for a Sor, with an extra 2d4 from the web - call it an average of 26 damage for the sorceror version (23.5 for the Wiz version) to all those caught in the web - less, if a reflex save is made (can Sorcerors or Wizards voluntarily use less of their key stat to decrease the save? As a level-3 spell, that could put Fireball's Ref save all the way down to DC 14 (13 on key stat -> +1; spell level 3, 10 base), which can be made reasonably often by most characters at a level where Fireball can be cast.

 

[MerakSpielman]

That is the assumption that I disagree with. I think you are reading to much into the spell at this point, and it doesn't match with what I've seen of burning webs in real life.

Webs are not substantial enough to catch on fire and keep burning on their own. You have to keep applying fire for it to continue burning.

Also, the rules generally spell out when something can catch fire and continue burning. Since the web spell doesn't do this, it is most likely not the way it works.

I've certainly never seen it ruled this way.

According to you guys, the Web spell is automatically nullified in one to two rounds by a single torch. I really don't think so.

I agree with you. I envision the strands of the web to be very thin, which makes it more believable. Imagine how a hair reacts when you pass it over a small fire. It burns to nothing in a flash, but not long or hot enough to light anything near it on fire.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Also, the rules generally spell out when something can catch fire and continue burning.

Wait... isn't that what 'set alight' means?

I envision the strands of the web to be very thin, which makes it more believable.

A very thin strand that needs a DC 20 Strength check? They're described as 'far larger' than spiderwebs. And flammable. And can be 'set alight'.

-Hyp.

 

[Lasher Dragon]

In my experience, spiderwebs burn as though they were made of flashpaper - WHOOSH and they are all gone.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I agree with Caliban. If they had meant for the fire to spread, they would have used such termonology. They would have also said how it spread.

Does it spread diagonally or only vertically and horizontally?
If a fire can only burn away 5ft/round, does that mean that the fire spreads only one square per round?
When does the next square catch alight?
What is the process of putting out these flames?

I think it means simply, you can burn away a 5' area per round.