Is there any way around Uncanny Dodge?

[Metallian]

So I screwed up tonight and had a Monk 9/Asn 8 with Improved Invisibility mess up the party Barbarian/Cleric with Shuriken and Sneak Attack. Since I've never really played a Barbarian or made an important Barbarian NPC, it didn't even cross my mind that it wouldn't work...I forgot that Barbarians get Uncanny Dodge at low level, and I wouldn't have remembered how it worked offhand anyway.

The player didn't mention it until after the encounter was over, but the near-dropping of the Barbarian/Cleric did have an appreciable effect on the encounter (I think it was the only time he had ever run away from an enemy) so I feel bad about it.

Anyway, I had accidentally given the Monk/Assassin a Feat for which he didn't qualify. I noticed it before the encounter started and erased it from his character sheet right before combat began, and didn't give him a new Feat because I didn't have time to think of one. Is there a Feat somewhere that allows an Invisible attacker to deny a character with Uncanny Dodge his Dex bonus (and thus Sneak Attack him) so I can retroactively justify this?

If not, would it be reasonable to invent an Assassin-friendly feat that had Death Attack and some level of Sneak Attack as prerequisites or something like that, or is that too cheesy? Uncanny Dodge is a pretty low-level ability, so it doesn't seem too crazy that a high-level feat could beat it.

The Metallian

 

[pingpong]

apparently Uncanny Dodge doesnt help if the character with the ability is Blind, so maybe theres something that can help there?

 

[Metallian]

apparently Uncanny Dodge doesnt help if the character with the ability is Blind, so maybe theres something that can help there?

Well, it specifically states that it works against Invisible attackers, and the attacker was Invisible, so I'm pretty much SOL unless I can find some Feat or something to justify it.

(Not that anyone blames me too much...I'm always forgetting about my NPCs' abilities, to the PCs benefit. Only fair that a player neglects to mention an ability and gets hosed once in a while. Still, I'd feel better if I could make a reasonable in-game explanation. Well, and do it again the next time they meet the Assassin, on purpose!)

The Metallian

 

[Tywyll]

Well, it specifically states that it works against Invisible attackers, and the attacker was Invisible, so I'm pretty much SOL unless I can find some Feat or something to justify it.

(Not that anyone blames me too much...I'm always forgetting about my NPCs' abilities, to the PCs benefit. Only fair that a player neglects to mention an ability and gets hosed once in a while. Still, I'd feel better if I could make a reasonable in-game explanation. Well, and do it again the next time they meet the Assassin, on purpose!)

The Metallian

I am not familiar with any such feat. However, that doesn't mean you can't make one up in your world. The PCs don't even have to know it exists, though you should tell your players that it does, just make sure the requirements are pretty stiff (as you said, Death Attack... maybe even a minimum DC requirement).

As for my game, I allowed the rogue 4 levels higher thing to work against normal uncanny dodge as well. I think its a pretty far-fetched ability and disagree that the small number of levels of barbarian or rogue justify the power of that particular ability.

 

[Thanee]

Nope, invisibility doesn't help against Uncanny Dodge.

Only stunned or any other condition, which makes him lose his Dex bonus to AC, can work around it.

In 3.5 it also seems, that being blinded denies the ability to use Uncanny Dodge.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Darklone]

From where do you have that? I didn't find anything yet that implies it.

I could see someone arguing that UD only helps against invisibility and flatfootedness... ah well.

 

[Nifelhein]

Is there a Feat somewhere that allows an Invisible attacker to deny a character with Uncanny Dodge his Dex bonus (and thus Sneak Attack him) so I can retroactively justify this?

If not, would it be reasonable to invent an Assassin-friendly feat that had Death Attack and some level of Sneak Attack as prerequisites or something like that, or is that too cheesy? Uncanny Dodge is a pretty low-level ability, so it doesn't seem too crazy that a high-level feat could beat it.

I wouldn't do it, it would be too good that anyone would love to take it, I would just say that we never change what WAS, but in the future we can deal with things in the proper manner, so you should not be sneak attacked.

I would say that an assassin with rogue levels would hire a henchman so that he would be able to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking him. The Dex bonus to AC is not subject to the same restriction that improved uncanny dodge is, for that matter.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I could see someone arguing that UD only helps against invisibility and flatfootedness... ah well.

Yup. And in 3E, the Dex loss while blind was because your opponents were effectively invisible, which UD protects against.

In 3.5, the Dex loss is simply because you're blind... and UD makes no mention of that.

-Hyp.

 

[bret]

Say "Oops, I goofed guys. Next time you suspect something like this, please ask me once if I had remembered that your character has a certain ability."

You don't want to get into a rules arguement, but if a player thinks you have forgotten one of their character's special abilities it should be OK to mention it once.

In this case, it should have been "Did you remember that I retain my DEX modifier to AC because of Uncanny Dodge?"

I wouldn't adjust the NPC or anything. Just move on and next time don't make that mistake.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I wouldn't create a feat that let you sneak attack characters with uncanny dodge when they're flatfooted. It would lead to the temptation to create a feat that let uncanny dodging characters avoid it. Which would lead to the temptation to create another feat in an escalating schoolyard "oh yeah" fashion. "I sneak attack. Oh yeah, I've got uncanny dodge. Oh yeah, well I've got the super sneak attack feat that beats uncanny dodge. Oh yeah well I've got SUPER DUPER Uncanny Dodge which beats super sneak attack. Oh yeah well I've got DOUBLE SUPER DUPER Sneak attack that beats super duper uncanny dodge. etc."

If you want an uncanny dodge defeating feat, the can't be flanked feat is more fertile ground for such a thing. A feat that treated a rogue as if he were four levels higher for the purpose of flanking foes with uncanny dodge would probably not lead to the same situation since it doesn't create a new method for defeating the ability but simply enhances an already existing method.