Is this a legal method of converting gp to xp

[Caliban]

Why are the horses considered no significant challenge, would a randomly encountered horse net xp? If so what is the difference?

Because most horses, being tame, would not resist you as you walked up to them and hit them with your sword. If there is no challenge, there is no XP.

As for the WWC/GC, Telekinesis tricks, those can be easily house rules with no roll down effects. If you say the horses are no significant challenge then you must present house rules that clearly state unde what conditions are they considered significant challenges else the CR rules become a mess

No house rule needed. Unless the horse is actively fighting back (and most horses trained to the saddle would not), it is not presenting a challenge to you.

Try it with a pissed off warhorse and you would earn some XP.

Try it with domesticated, non war-trained, animals in any reasonable game, and the DM should laugh you out of the game.

 

[hammymchamham]

I think the slaughtering of these horse would be considered evil. You're basically just killing these horses to become more powerful. Not to survive off of its meat (as a butcher or commenor would in disperate times). Personally if I were a player who was N or G in alignment, I just might attack the party member doing this. If I were Evil then I'd join in maybe. If I were a DM, that horse just might have a few templates on it you weren't expecting (Psedonatural comes to mind).

 

[Pax]

Instead of metagaming, you should ask your GM to come up with a system for paid training. Not every character higher than 1st level gains their XP in life-or-death combat; Commoners, for instance, gain XP (slowly) for passig the challenge of each season's farming duties, and such.

A school in which one can learn better fighting should be rated for price, an XP cap (you can gain up to X experience, but not beyond, regardless), and a number of XP gained per given span of time -- say, 10XP per week, meaning a 1st level fighter that spends just under two years in that "fighter school," becomes a 2d level fighter.

The cost is tricky. You want the GP per XP to be a game-balanced rate, but you also want to make the school in general affordable to non-adventurers. I'd say, for the per-week, 5GP per XP. For a per-month, 1GP per XP (the higher price represents extra lessons, private tutoring, and special attention from the head of the school). And the XP award only comes if you pass the "challenge" of that week's or month's lessons/training.

I would also say, the above would work best in a situation where the player has to announce their *next* level gained (IOW, if you're a 5th level character, decide what class your SIXTH level will be), and you can only benefit properly from the right sort of school. Thus you could have seminaries for teh clerics and druids, music lessons for bards, classes and supervised research at a mage guild, and so on.

Just a thought.

 

[Luis Figoo]

Caliban:

How about these scenerios
i) I buy wild horses (before they are tamed). Since most animals fight back when cornered, its likely they would counter attack

ii) I hire the animal trainer along with the horse purchase. The animal trainer just gives the order to attack.

iii) I purchase warhorses instead

hammymchamham:

Yeah it would seem evil well until you remember that whalers used to hunt whales just for their organs which produced a sort of perfume (still do i think)

Then there's those who kill off elephants just for their tusks, tigers for their skins (and other less savory parts), plus tons of other examples. None of those were for eating either. Then again alignment varies DM by DM.

Pax:

The schools a good idea, though like you said the rate of xp gained is tough to measure. Too much and another illogical situation comes up, the 20th level fighter thats less than 20 years old (which btw is very possible if you ran the recommended WotC adventures back to back). Too little and players will come up with ideas like what i'm doing .

Also there's a few follow up problems. For example, would the gp use for schooling be considered as expended? If so i could likely gain them back in another adventure, which allows me to get more schooling. This would cause a spiral problem i mentioned earlier using the gp asset by level value in the DMG (which btw is not easy judging whats an asset and whats not)

As for metagaming, i could tell my DM that after fighting so much stuff and learning that i learn new fighting techniques and such in combat situations, it wouldn't make much sense for my fighter (int 14) not to think of arena combat being an equivalent help

 

[Caliban]

Caliban:

How about these scenerios
i) I buy wild horses (before they are tamed). Since most animals fight back when cornered, its likely they would counter attack

Who has wild horses sitting around for sale? You only see them in the city after they have been trained, and most of them are raised from birth and are never really "wild" in the first place.

Relatively few areas actually go out and capture wild horses. Medieval europe is not the old west. If you want to take the time and money to go out to one of the areas where they do try to capture wild horses, and try to capture some yourself, go for it.

I guarantee that if I'm the DM, no one would be willing to sell them to you after they hear about what you are doing.

ii) I hire the animal trainer along with the horse purchase. The animal trainer just gives the order to attack.

i) A good aligned trainer will refuse.
ii) the horse will mysteriously crit and kill you. Happy now?

iii) I purchase warhorses instead

At 400 gp per horse, and the warhorse has good chance of kicking your ass up until your 4th level or so. Be my guest.

And if you have the animal restrained or caged in such a way that it cannot attack you back, then no challenge, and no XP.

There are much more effective ways of gaining XP, and I'm pretty sure that the local aristocrats and/or knighthoods will be pretty unhappy with your for slaughtering trained warmounts. There's probably even a law against it. In medievel europe the penalty for killing a knight's horse was worse than the penalty for killing a peasant. The situation may not be as extreme as that in a normal D&D world, but there would be reprecussions.


In any case, if you want to just sit there and generate XP like that, you don't really need a DM do you? Sounds more like accounting than roleplaying, but whatever works for you.

All I can say is that it flat will not work in any game I'm running, so there's really no need for me to make a specific ruling, other than: No XP for you.

 

[Henrix]

You get xp for overcoming challenges.
Not for killing things.

Buying a horse (or whatever) and then slaughtering it is not overcoming a challenge.
The character achieves nothing, besides getting expensive sausage meat.

 

[Luis Figoo]

Who has wild horses sitting around for sale? You only see them in the city after they have been trained, and most of them are raised from birth and are never really "wild" in the first place.

This is a good point, may have to consider other animal types. chose horses due to the perceived ease of getting them

I guarantee that I'm the DM, no one would be willing to sell them to you after they hear about what you are doing.

Ah but you forget about the mighty power of the gp. Not every animal trainer is kind to animals

i) A good aligned trainer will refuse.
ii) the horse will mysteriously crit and kill you. Happy now?

Ah but my DM can't do that, we all roll out in the open

At 400 gp per horse, and the warhorse has good chance of kicking your ass up until your 4th level or so. Be my guest.

And if you have the animal restrained or caged in such a way that it cannot attack you back, then no challenge, and no XP.

Well i am 4th level, so that would work for me but not very well for leveling low level followers. Yes it would have to be open combat, no restraints no healers. The cage i mentioned earlier was to prevent my DM from sticking a break DC on the animal holding area. A bunch of war horses could prove fatal

There are much more effective ways of gaining XP, and I'm pretty sure that the local aristocrats and/or knighthoods will be pretty unhappy with your for slaughtering trained warmounts. There's probably even a law against it. In medievel europe the penalty for killing a knight's horse was worse than the penalty for killing a peasant. The situation may not be as extreme as that in a normal D&D world, but there would be reprecussions.

Hmm that could prove a problem. I would probably need to enlist the wizard's help (with alter self) and make up guises of horse customers. that should shunt any suspicion.

Anyway, i'm certain my DM will counter this attempt. Like i said earlier, we like to stick tough situations for the other to solve without resorting to rule 0 or cheats likefudging dice

 

[Luis Figoo]

You get xp for overcoming challenges.
Not for killing things.

Buying a horse (or whatever) and then slaughtering it is not overcoming a challenge.
The character achieves nothing, besides getting expensive sausage meat.

Again you'll need to define what is a challenge. For example would you get xp from a horse charmed or controlled into attacking you?

Getting the horse to attack shouldn't be a problem. All living creatures will defend themselves when cornered (unless frightened into shock)

 

[Pax]

Caliban:

How about these scenerios
i) I buy wild horses (before they are tamed). Since most animals fight back when cornered, its likely they would counter attack

Not hebivores, unless you buy ONE stallion and TWO or more mares, and fight only the stallion. Herbivores, especially of species whose main advantage is land speed, tend to run away, not turn and fight. Evenif you corner it, most horses won;t stop and fight you to the death. They'll bull rush you, and head for freedom.

ii) I hire the animal trainer along with the horse purchase. The animal trainer just gives the order to attack.

Evil act, on both your part and the part of the trainer.

iii) I purchase warhorses instead

And rouse the ire and hatred of the upper class; smart move.

Have you considered just wandering about in a poorer neighborhood, trying to look like a victim -- and waiting for thelocal thieve's guild to declare open season on you?

hammymchamham:

Yeah it would seem evil well until you remember that whalers used to hunt whales just for their organs which produced a sort of perfume (still do i think).

Ambergris. And that was a case of hunters out to gain a product. Your scenario is someone out to kill things ... in order to learn better how to kill things. THAT is the difference; that's what makes it evil.

Then there's those who kill off elephants just for their tusks, tigers for their skins (and other less savory parts), plus tons of other examples. None of those were for eating either. Then again alignment varies DM by DM.

Also, hunters seeking to harvest a physical commodity from their prey. Your character would not be hunting the horses in order to get part of their bodies, with the killing being an unavoidable incidental effect. You would be going out to kill the horses ... solely to kill hte horses. That is the key difference that makes the act evil.

Pax:

The schools a good idea, though like you said the rate of xp gained is tough to measure. Too much and another illogical situation comes up, the 20th level fighter thats less than 20 years old (which btw is very possible if you ran the recommended WotC adventures back to back). Too little and players will come up with ideas like what i'm doing .

Hence 10XP per week beign the "high" rate. Considering 20th level characters have close to 200,000xp, well ... ata rate of 50gp per week to earn 10xp ... with NO time off due to illness, injury, or just wanting a bloody LIFE, you would need nearly twenty thousand weeks, to go from 1st level to 20th level -- roughly 400 years. Knock yourself out!

On top of which, thatis why I suggested an experience cap (probably related to the level of the school's Master). So, a school with a 20K experience cap, can't train you very far. Eventually, indeed there would be NO schools for characters at a certain level (probably, IMO, above 8th to 10th level).

Also there's a few follow up problems. For example, would the gp use for schooling be considered as expended? If so i could likely gain them back in another adventure, which allows me to get more schooling. This would cause a spiral problem i mentioned earlier using the gp asset by level value in the DMG (which btw is not easy judging whats an asset and whats not)

The gold cost is intended for verisimilitude (and to require you to have the amount, up front, before beginning training). During the training, you would not be able to do ANY adventuring -- the time used is the real cost. 10XP per week, tops.

However, it's a good use of time for non-magic-item-manufacturors, during the occasional "two months down" the party Wizards (etc) might want'need to manufacture new items, research new spells, or whatnot.

As for earning the GP back -- well, of COURSE you can. If you buy a potion, and drink it, and it saves yourlife ... the gp cost of the potion is no longer counted "against" the character's suggested wealth-by-level amount.

As for metagaming, i could tell my DM that after fighting so much stuff and learning that i learn new fighting techniques and such in combat situations, it wouldn't make much sense for my fighter (int 14) not to think of arena combat being an equivalent help

The point of XP is, you are supposed to overcome a challenge. Now, if your fighter wanted to enter an arena TORUNAMENT, even if for the sole goal of winning the title (and maybe the purse ) ... then each combat would earn half to full XP (depending on how the GM sets it up; half combat XP due to readily available healing seems like a good idea to me).

But, if it's just sparring and practising ... then you get the lower XP total based on my idea of training ... or none at all.

XP are no longer based on KILLING stuff. You could (in an area with wild horse herds) gain full XP value for encountering wild horses, if your goal was to capture some ... and you do.

XP are based on overcoming obstacles and challenges that would prevent you from achieving a legitimate goal.

As an example ... randomly fireballing an inn-full of peasantry doesn't earn you XP in and of itself. If burning the inn down was a goal you had (for legitimate reasons, NOT just "because I wanna go up a level and there're lots of people in there"), then the GM might award you some experience ... perhaps based on the two guards you neatly bypassed by using fireball ot ignite the combustibles. NOT for the fifty-whatever peasants randomly torched in the process.

 

[Caliban]

Again you'll need to define what is a challenge. For example would you get xp from a horse charmed or controlled into attacking you?

Nope. No more than you get XP for defeating a summoned monster or surviving a fireball without overcoming the wizard who cast it.

The charm or control spell is a class ability or natural ability of whoever is using it, and you would get the XP for defeating them, not their animal.

Getting the horse to attack shouldn't be a problem. All living creatures will defend themselves when cornered (unless frightened into shock)

Only if they recognize the threat. Domesticated animals are used to humans approaching them and doing odd things. If you provoke it first, then it will probably try to run before it would try to attack you. Horses aren't predators, and generally will only try to defend themselves. (Although there are some mean-spirited horses that bite and kick even when unprovoked.)

And the DM would have every right to start shifting your alignment towards evil for deliberately killing animals for no discernable benefit. Killing animals for food or clothing is necessary for survival. Killing them in single combat is not.

How many heroe's do you know of that got their start killing helpless herbivores? Not a good reputation to start with.

It just seems like Hackmaster would be more your style than 3e.