is this a valid tactic for shutting down a caster

[evilbob]

The "cast it on a grain of sand" idea is rather funny, but not really practical. It's just as useful as casting the spell on the ground in front of the caster (he can't "move" that item either and will just have to leave) and since the spell only lasts minutes/level it's not really a good long-term strategy, either. It would be effective at disguising who cast the spell, though.


Here's an idea for silence for those who don't like its power: a very strict reading of the text could be taken to mean that it can only be cast on a creature or a point in space. Since just about every possible abuse for this spell requires casting it on an item, a reasonable way to get around the power of the no-save emanation would be to restrict the spell thusly.

 

[roguerouge]

I wouldn't house rule it, for three reasons. One, there's Silent Spell, which is useful in infiltrations, but gets most of its worth out of facing these kinds of threats. A house rule nerfs this feat, which impacts wizards (with their bonus feats) and beguilers. Second, as noted, the readied action can't work, because the spell casting that starts the readied action has a head start. Third, any spell effect that leads to tactical game-playing should be encouraged.

 

[Evilhalfling]

My HR to keep someone silence from shutting down an archmage is to use a ruling from an earlier edition that specifies that the shout spell negates silence. (but has no other effect if it is used this way) This also become an easy out for bards who cant cast silenced spells.
-IMC there are a lot of villianous bards. Evil Elf Queens, Sublime Cords etc...

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Can you show me a rule to support your assertion that the readied action won't work? How is this any different than readying an action to shoot someone with a bow when they cast? Doesn't the spell casting have a head start then too? Yet, the rules clearly say that the bow shot can interrupt the spellcasting; we even have explicit mechanics (the concentration check) to adjudicate what happens when it does.

I wouldn't house rule it, for three reasons. One, there's Silent Spell, which is useful in infiltrations, but gets most of its worth out of facing these kinds of threats. A house rule nerfs this feat, which impacts wizards (with their bonus feats) and beguilers. Second, as noted, the readied action can't work, because the spell casting that starts the readied action has a head start. Third, any spell effect that leads to tactical game-playing should be encouraged.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Does anyone else have a good rationalization to go with the rules?

If you need a flavour explanation for how a readied action can interrupt the triggering action, consider perhaps the readier verbalises most of the words of the spell and makes most of the gestures as part of the standard action, Ready, and that if-and-when the triggering condition is met, he finishes it off. (It's obviously these crucial last few syllables that provoke the AoO when casting in this fashion, since the Ready action doesn't )

-Hyp.

 

[eamon]

If you need a flavour explanation for how a readied action can interrupt the triggering action, consider perhaps the readier verbalises most of the words of the spell and makes most of the gestures as part of the standard action, Ready, and that if-and-when the triggering condition is met, he finishes it off. (It's obviously these crucial last few syllables that provoke the AoO when casting in this fashion, since the Ready action doesn't ).

It's better than nothing, that's for sure - you could also already grasp any material components or whatnot for a spell that had those - but of course, a readied action might not be taken, and if it's not, then you don't expend the spell, so I suppose you'd need to consider these things "preparatory" actions which aren't actually the "moment supreme" of the spell, so to speak. It would also hint at a means to identify what a character is readying - with a sense motive/spot/spellcraft check, as appropriate...

Sounds playable anyways!

I guess in the fringe cases, ready will just need DM ruling if you want to avoid impossibly fast reaction times - something like an opposed initiative check or so.

 

[eamon]

The rogue IMC has a button or other small trinket attached to every tanglefoot bag he owns. That way they can be the target of a Silence spell that is almost impossible to remove quickly.

I think I might house-rule that to allow a will saving throw. Conceptually, once you've attached the button to the creature, it becomes an attended object - and normally those get saving throws (of course, normally not to end ongoing effects). Does that sound reasonable?

Judging by D&D fiction books, and fluff texts all over, silence isn't the universal anti-spellcaster strategy it would become if such a strategy were easy. That motivates me to find a work around against a seemingly workable strategy.

 

[eamon]

I'd also allow a bluff check by the spellcaster to "pretend" to be casting a spell. Since readying involves being somewhat hair-triggered, and since combat is chaotic, I'd probably even grant the caster a bonus (or the readier a sense motive penalty). Also, you need to see the caster casting to perform your readied action. If he passes even momentarily out of sight, you'll fail.

A sleight of hand or bluff check (perhaps together with concentration to avoid losing the spell through distraction) to hide the spell casting (turning his back to the "silencer", being particularly unexpected with any vocalizations) might also prevent the ready from triggering, or at least necessitate an initiative check to trigger on purely the non-hideable sound: do you cast silence fast enough?

An ally of the spellcaster could shoot the "silencer" while he casts, provoking a concentration check, or could delay until right before the casters normal turn and grapple the "silencer" (delaying would make it more difficult for someone to intervene).

You could rule that some very short actions are unsuitable to be a condition for ready. For instance, certain (or all) swift actions could fall under that category. Readying for when someone "starts casting" is fine, but only if the spell actually isn't finished then.

If you ready an action "as soon as someone walks through the door", generally that action would trigger right after someone walks through the door. By analogy, dropping a portcullis on someone walking through a door isn't easy to time correctly (if you can't see the person coming, anyhow), and a ready action should only guarantee success against slow moving, easy targets.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I think I might house-rule that to allow a will saving throw. Conceptually, once you've attached the button to the creature, it becomes an attended object - and normally those get saving throws (of course, normally not to end ongoing effects). Does that sound reasonable?

I think that's the whole reason for the button. If you throw the bag and then cast Silence on the button, it's an attended object and he gets a save. If you cast Silence on the button and then throw the bag, it was not an attended object and no save was applicable.

If you then allow a saving throw when it becomes an attended object, does that mean that if he passes the button to someone else, they get a save as well?

-Hyp.

 

[Storme]

This is assuming of course that the caster doesn't have a spell without verbal components available (of which I never leave home without), has a touch attack loaded, or isn't, God Forbid, a Geometer, who rarely needs verbal components.


Storme