is this a valid tactic for shutting down a caster

evilbob said:
Also, is there still no one who will offer an interpretation on the "interupting silence ruins scoll/uses wand charge: yes/no" question?

For a Scroll, generally yes, unless the spell has no verbal component ordinarily, than it is up to the DM if reading the scroll requires speaking aloud.

For the Wand, it depends on how it is activated, but also yes as a general rule.

For my own games, I would say Yes in all cases except where the Metamagic feat SilentSpell is applied to the Wand / Scroll.

I would also say Yes for burning the scroll use if the interrupt was a readied action, and No for wands.

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Lord Zardoz said:
Ok, evil bob, here is a direct response. For the record though, I was responding to someone else in the thread at one point though.
Fair enough: thank you for your continued responses.

Lord Zardoz said:
Rules complication: Since Bob cannot hear Xaxos, can he figure out of Xaxos is casting a verbal only spell?
Should not be an issue since silence is cast only once, and only to interupt the spell. He will have heard him.

Lord Zardoz said:
A potion of invisibility would also work...
Brilliant!

Lord Zardoz said:
A Tanglefoot bag may work...
Brilliant!

Lord Zardoz said:
A smoke stick could work quite well...
Brilliant!

Ok so we have established that there are several mundane methods of escaping this situation: anything that is a non-spell that produces helpful spell-like effects (for example, a potion), or anything that is a non-spell item that could hamper the silencer's ability to follow the caster, such as a tanglefoot bag or smoke stick. These are all excellent ideas to use against this tactic: thank you! (I agree that the smoke stick is a particularly useful item, since it also works well in a small, enclosed area - which is normally a huge factor against the caster in this situation.)

Lord Zardoz said:
Xaxos could just double move away...
Nope, because Bob would have readied an action to follow him, and can move again next round. He'll always be close enough, unless Xaxos runs or uses a non-spell item to escape.
 


evilbob said:
Nope, because Bob would have readied an action to follow him, and can move again next round. He'll always be close enough, unless Xaxos runs or uses a non-spell item to escape.

You can Ready a Standard action, or a move action. Not both. You also cannot Move then ready an action as far as I know. So unless Bob moves a whole lot faster than Xaxos, using double move can get you far enough away that Bob is still out of range. Here is what happens assuming Xaxos and Bob move the same speed:

Bob readies an action to follow Xaxos.
Xaxos takes a double move.
Bob takes a half move. Xaxos is probably still out of range of the Silence spell.
Xaxos blasts bob.

Now, regarding the scroll being burned, if a spell is interrupted it is lost. However, if you cannot even start casting the spell, I do not think you lose it.

Wands, as far as I know, do not suffer from being interrupted. you can prevent its use, but you cannot interrupt a spell from a wand.

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Lord Zardoz said:
You also cannot Move then ready an action as far as I know.

This, you certainly can do. The Ready action is a standard action, and in a turn you can take a move action and a standard action, so there's definitely nothing preventing you moving as your move action, and then Readying as your standard action.

So in Round 1, Bob moves alongside Xaxos as a move action, and Readies a move action for if Xaxos moves outside the radius of the spell. Xaxos moves 20 feet, and as he goes to move further, the readied action triggers, and Bob moves alongside him again. Xaxos has ten feet of movement left - still within the spell - and then can either take a move action or a standard action. He can't cast, since he's still Silenced, so he moves another 30 feet, taking him 20 feet outside the spell radius.

In round 2, Bob moves 30 feet, putting Xaxos back inside the spell, and Readies again. Xaxos moves 10 feet then triggers the Ready; Bob moves back adjacent; Xaxos finishes his movement, still just inside the spell. Again, he has a move or standard action left, so he moves again, getting 30 feet outside the spell, and he still hasn't been able to cast.

This time, Bob has a problem - he needs to double move to get adjacent this time. But bear in mind that Xaxos has had to move 120 feet in a straight line so far to bring that situation about. How big is the area where all this is taking place? Eventually, he has to hit a wall, right?

-Hyp.
 
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Ok, I just double checked, looks like I was wrong. You can move then ready an action. Did that change between 3.0 and 3.5?


Hypersmurf said:
.....
This time, Bob has a problem - he needs to double move to get adjacent this time. But bear in mind that Xaxos has had to move 120 feet in a straight line so far to bring that situation about. How big is the area where all this is taking place? Eventually, he has to hit a wall, right?

-Hyp.

The wonderful thing about these hypothetical situations is that no one ever really stipulates when or where they happen. 120 feet of movement is trivial in an outdoor environment, barring a river or cliff.

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Lord Zardoz said:
Ok, I just double checked, looks like I was wrong. You can move then ready an action. Did that change between 3.0 and 3.5?

No. 3E PHB p134: "Readying is a standard action, so you can move as well."

-Hyp.
 

evilbob said:
Also, is there still no one who will offer an interpretation on the "interupting silence ruins scoll/uses wand charge: yes/no" question?
I've hidden my answer to that a little too well:

There's no reason I'm aware of that a magic item triggered by verbal command would be triggered is the command is successfully suppressed. That means that wands and most wondrous items won't be triggered if a silence spell sucessfully supresses the command word in the nick of time; no charges are consumed.

Spell completion items (scrolls) are a little trickier, since they're more like normal spells. The rules don't really cover it. In the definitive rules section on such items, there's no clear answer either way. Shortly before it, concerning AoO's, it's said that spell completion items are treated as casting spells and hence provoke attacks of opportunities, and in the section specifically about scrolls it says they're subject to disruption as are normal spells. Despite these things, I'd rule that scrolls aren't consumed when disrupted by silence.

Partially that's because it's not nice to destroy someone's magic item, so I'd prefer the conservative approach here in general. Another part of it is the difference between types of disruption: if you hit someone and he fails his concentration check; then the ability is truly disrupted. However, with a scroll, it's possible it never even is activated properly. At least some times, you can easily imagine the silence taking effect before the crucial reading step. Unlike normal spells, in scrolls the "real" preparation (the part that causes you to require daily study etc) is stored in the scroll. This part is clearly not disrupted by silence; merely casting silence doesn't destroy a scroll. You could disrupt a scroll only if it's "preparation" has already left the paper so to speak, but not yet taken effect. I'd rule that that's not possible - the activation is instantaneous, and you can disrupt it, and it fails, but you can't half-disrupt it, allowing it to proceed far enough to consume the scroll yet not far enough to cast the spell. The disruption destroys your focus in all the things you've prepared; except that in a scroll's case there is not preparation since that's in the scroll.

The above explanation is extremely wishy-washy, so I'd expect most people to rule otherwise; but I'm not going to destroy magic items unless it's clearly the correct course of action - I'd call it erring on the side of caution. Consider also, that destroying such a scroll is almost always bad for the PC's - it might be their scroll (in which case it's obviously bad) or it might be an opponents (in which case it's just less loot). And for cases where it's an important NPC that doesn't fall into the PC's hands, then I don't want to derail the character's abilities without due cause.

I'd say no disrupting the activation of a magic item consume any charges - unless there is a clear cause (such as disruptions which disrupt the execution of the effect and not the activation itself - for instance a spellcaster being hit who tries through concentration to continue casting, but fails - the activation doesn't require a concentration check, the fact that it's a spell does).
 

Incidentally, a self-silenced cleric chasing a spellcaster using readied actions had best ready not on the spellcaster leaving the silenced area, but on the spellcaster beginning to cast. Otherwise, a spellcaster who for some reason can move 40ft in a particular round (using boots of striding and springing, say) would trigger the cleric's ready as soon as he's 20ft away, but after the clerics follow-up action, he'd still have enough movement to escape the radius (depending on the battle's layout). Waiting until as late as possible until deciding your movement is probably smart. Also, if there is any means of gaining total concealment or cover, then the silence emanation will not effect the caster - here too, you want to avoid moving until you're a sure as can be that you know which cover the caster is heading to.
 

eamon said:
Incidentally, a self-silenced cleric chasing a spellcaster using readied actions had best ready not on the spellcaster leaving the silenced area, but on the spellcaster beginning to cast. Otherwise, a spellcaster who for some reason can move 40ft in a particular round (using boots of striding and springing, say) would trigger the cleric's ready as soon as he's 20ft away, but after the clerics follow-up action, he'd still have enough movement to escape the radius (depending on the battle's layout).

If the spellcaster instead double-moves, however, you won't be able to keep him in the radius next round.

Round 1 - you move adjacent, and ready vs casting. He double moves.
Round 2 - you double move. No ready possible. He moves and casts.

-Hyp.
 

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