Is Vow of Poverty broken?

[Kelleris]

Well of course there are a good number of excellent feats for the psion, but I don't think it's mandated that they need all of those, and I think VoP makes for a good swap-in for one of them. Probably not hugely overpowered, I think, but an excellent alternative choice.

 

[Thanee]

VoP costs two feats, tho, as Rystil mentioned, not just one.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Kelleris]

VoP costs two feats, tho, as Rystil mentioned, not just one.

I'm aware of that. I can't speak to the other one, though, as I can't recall what it does. It's probably fairly useless (like the equivalent Vile "look I sold my soul" feats), though I would hope it does something worthwhile.

Anyway, forget the business about the psion - it doesn't really help the OP much, and I probably don't know what I'm talking about anyway. (Although surely the psion is a more natural choice, and along the same lines, than the sorcerer for VoP, and several people commented on the sorcerer synergy as being the strongest. Oops. Okay, I'll stop now.)

Sheesh, haven't posted in a week and I pick something I have only vague memories of to comment on. Lapse of judgment or something...

Fellow posters, let this be a revelation unto you - people on the Interweb don't always know what they're talking about!

 

[Rystil Arden]

VoP costs two feats, tho, as Rystil mentioned, not just one.

Yup, exactly, although

I think VoP makes for a good swap-in for one of them. Probably not hugely overpowered, I think, but an excellent alternative choice.

I agree with this too--its a good alternative swap-in for two of the feats, but I consider the other two feats plus the option of items to be better for the Psion. That said, if VoP helps your concept, then it is a good alternative choice, as you mentioned

 

[Rystil Arden]

It's probably fairly useless (like the equivalent Vile "look I sold my soul" feats), though I would hope it does something worthwhile.

Yup, its pretty useless. It gives a +2 perfection bonus to Diplomacy. That's worse than Skill Focus: Diplomacy, and I've never exactly seen players standing in line to take SF: Diplomacy

Sheesh, haven't posted in a week and I pick something I have only vague memories of to comment on. Lapse of judgment or something...

No worries

 

[Particle_Man]

Without further modification, this would presumably allow the use of that pouch for any spell component. There is no further modification on what may be in the pouch listed.

from the phb under "Spell Component Pouch": "A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, *except for those components that have a specific cost*, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch". (Emphasis mine)

If you put other components with a specific cost into your pouch, you are violating the VoP. The VoP only allows the pouch and what came with it. You can't put other material goods with a specific cost into it, as carrying those material good would be breaking the vow of poverty, just as it would be breaking the VoP if you carried gold coins in that pouch.

You may beg for spell components with a specific cost (from other pcs or other npcs), to be used immediately (as you could beg to drink someone else's potion), but that's it. You can't carry "spell components with a specific cost" around yourself.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Right now im playing a vop druid. I believe that I am the most powerful character in the group.

I do not know if this is because of the druid or vop.

I chose vop so I would not have to worry about magic items. Also I wanted to try something different and I wanted to role play a character that wasn’t greedy for a change. So far everything has gone well.

One problem my character generally runs into is that he has lots of gold on him but... is put into situations whare he needs to use gold to salve problems, like getting his clothing sowed when it got all torn up. One of the players knows what vop is but the other player is newish, but has a good guess what vop is like (has as never asked about it) so the other characters usaly helps out my character when he needs a service of a low price. I almost lost vop when I was about to give gold to the tailor but I caught myself. Its awkward to role play the character when he has so much gold but bums from the other characters. I usaly find my way out by saying "this gold is not for me, but for the poor". Luckily no one has said... "but that would mean your poor", but I wouldn’t mind the challenge if it came up

I have looked at other classes but I think that vop for a druid must be the most powerful class for vop. Everything works in wildshape, so it’s like wearing magic items in wildshape. It’s very powerful. I have found myself not using spells and feat combos because it would be too powerful (quill blast and sudden maximize or green bound summoning or fleshrackers and venom fire)

At the moment I think I have found a balance of power so my character isn’t stronger then the other characters. If they get broken items though, I might start pulling out the big bazooka spells to complete, but I think everything is fine for the moment.

This was the first time I played a druid, but i think that vop gives a huge boost to the druid at its low levels before it has wildshape. Not really broken, but it lets them survive their weak stage. I think that vop looses its power at later levels, but this is compared to the early levels. One very powerful thing about vop for spell casters is exalted strike. Any spell that requires an attack role (usaly ranged touch) gets a bonus to hit and damage. I think all and all its not too powerful, but it is a very nice convenience in that one doesn’t have to worry about what items the dm gives the other players. Its also nice not to worry about the loot and focus on role playing. I think that as a druid, the character can overcome many of the vop shortcomings, like ability to fly and other things that vop doesn’t grant.

I am sure my dm is going to start adding in difficult moral problems were someone can be saved with a druid only spell and they have a wand of it but none can use it.

I look forward to this though. I have to say overall with a mature group of players, vop is very fun and should never be used for powergameing as a primary purpose for vop.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If you put other components with a specific cost into your pouch, you are violating the VoP.

No, if you accumulate wealth to buy or actually buy such components, you are violating the Vow. Storing spell components and foci is the normal use of a spell component pouch, regardless of value.

The VoP only allows the pouch and what came with it. You can't put other material goods with a specific cost into it, as carrying those material good would be breaking the vow of poverty, just as it would be breaking the VoP if you carried gold coins in that pouch.

No, that's incorrect. A spellpouch is purchased (or otherwise obtained) containing, and is assumed to be full of at all times with material components of negligible value outside of spellcasting. In that, it functions like a non-magical decanter of endless water- the caster need never replenish its cheaper contents despite the fact that those contents are being "annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process" (PHB p174) It does not come with components with a specific cost or divine foci because those must be obtained seperately. You know- "batteries not included."

Basically, the spellpouch comes with spellcaster's basic box of legos. If he wants to do more with his legos, he has to acquire more legos from other sets. Most spellcasters simply pay money and get the legos they need, but the VoP spellcaster has no money with which to purchase anything of value. He will have to be content with his basic lego set until he finds more legos or someone gives him some more legos. If he somehow acquires an expensive set of legos, he may still use and carry it, but he may give those legos to someone else.

Or, to put it another way, my car comes with room for 4 passengers and their luggage. It does not come with those passengers or their luggage- those I must pick up along the way.

A spellcaster with a spell component pouch is assumed to have all the material components and focuses needed for spellcasting, except for those components that have a specific cost, divine focuses, and focuses that wouldn't fit in a pouch

(PHB p130, emphasis mine)

This just reinforces my point that the VoP is not supposed to be used 100% RAW- the DM is supposed to exercise a little common sense.

Ask yourself: Why would a god's servant, seemingly blessed beyond most other mortals (in a real sense, the D&D equivalent to a living saint), be robbed of his ability to cast divine spells? Most Paladin spells and many Clerical spells require a divine focus, yet RAW, the VoP would prevent them from carrying it. Bless, something you think an Exalted Paladin or Cleric could cast, becomes unusable. Calm Emotions? Identify? Owl's Wisdom? Protection From Evil? Raise Dead? Regenerate? Spiritual Weapon? The Summon Monster spells? Sunburst? Tongues?- all are completely uncastable for a VoP PC in a campaign where the feat is used RAW. That, BTW, is NOT a complete list, and I didn't even touch the ones that get knocked off the Bard, Druid & Ranger spell lists.

And once again, re:the spellbook- its a 15gp item when aquired- its only value lies in the spells the PC writes in it. Its extremely odd to me that a VoP PC would have to give up his spellbook the instant he writes down a spell in it for future study and rememorization- odd enough to me that I would not make a VoP PC give it up.

 

[Particle_Man]

No, if you accumulate wealth to buy or actually buy such components, you are violating the Vow. Storing spell components and foci is the normal use of a spell component pouch, regardless of value.

Basically, the spellpouch comes with spellcaster's basic box of legos. If he wants to do more with his legos, he has to acquire more legos from other sets. Most spellcasters simply pay money and get the legos they need, but the VoP spellcaster has no money with which to purchase anything of value. He will have to be content with his basic lego set until he finds more legos or someone gives him some more legos. If he somehow acquires an expensive set of legos, he may still use and carry it, but he may give those legos to someone else.

Or, to put it another way, my car comes with room for 4 passengers and their luggage. It does not come with those passengers or their luggage- those I must pick up along the way.

(PHB p130, emphasis mine)

This just reinforces my point that the VoP is not supposed to be used 100% RAW- the DM is supposed to exercise a little common sense.

Ask yourself: Why would a god's servant, seemingly blessed beyond most other mortals (in a real sense, the D&D equivalent to a living saint), be robbed of his ability to cast divine spells?

And once again, re:the spellbook- its a 15gp item when aquired- its only value lies in the spells the PC writes in it. Its extremely odd to me that a VoP PC would have to give up his spellbook the instant he writes down a spell in it for future study and rememorization- odd enough to me that I would not make a VoP PC give it up.

1) The RAW back me up. The expensive legos/components cannot be carried around by the VoP spellcaster. That is exactly why the character has to beg from another character to use the component on the spot (to cast the spell there and then), or else drain her own experience points to cast the spell. A character could no more "Store up" expensive components for later than she could "Store up" more than one day's worth of food at a time. The vow says "you may not carry or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions". One of those exceptions is the "spell component pouch". NOT "the spell component pouch (with any expensive components, foci, etc., you can jam into it)". "The spell component pouch". This item is defined in the equipment list of the phb very clearly. To allow the VoP character to carry (for personal use) expensive components, foci, etc., in it, would be similar to allowing the VoP character to carry (for personal use) giant rubies in the sack the VoP character is allowed to have.

To use your analogy, you only get the basic set of lego, and cannot carry around the expensive legos in your cheapo lego box. Or to use your metaphor, you get to drive the car, but can't carry any passengers or luggage.

2) The FAQ backs me up. The Sage specifically says that VoP is for mature players who want to try characters with limitations. That limitation specifically includes not using divine focus, and thus not being able to turn undead, or cast some spells (fortunately, they can cast other spells). That sounds about right to me and matches my "Common sense" view that Vow of Poverty involves Sacrifice.

3) The 15 gp for an empty spellbook is buying you paper that is bound. Paper is not without cost in D&D, and neither is the binding service or materials. If you do not think that a blank book has any material value, I suggest you try to take one out of a book store without paying for it and see what happense. Carrying around an empty spellbook is like carrying around a "blank" book (say a diary or journal), and violating one's vow. A wizard with VoP would be hurting, and would be well advised to take the Spell Mastery feat as often as possible.

Now if you want to house rule differently, that is fine. Many DMs do just that on the holy symbol issue. But this is not the house rule forum. This is the D&D rules forum.

Oh, and Druids are ungodly powerful, but that is another topic.

 

[Dimwhit]

I'm going to be playing a Cleric soon with VoP starting at 1st level. I'm doing it for RP purposes mainly, but I guess I'll find out if it's overpowered. Seems like a nice fit with the Cleric, though.

I do think, however, that I'm going to end up with more exalted feats than I can use. Most of them don't seem like they'll do me much good, but we'll see. I'm looking forward to it.