Is WOTC falling into a problem like the old TSR did

[Crothian]

Complete Warrior helps all classes, although it helps warrior-types more, of course.

Complete Warrior and Complete adventure did okay in this, but complete arcane and complete divine really are not deigned for all classes.

 

[MerricB]

Complete Warrior and Complete adventure did okay in this, but complete arcane and complete divine really are not deigned for all classes.

Complete Arcane helps all spellcasters, and there are a bunch of feats for non-spellcasters (Mage Slayer being the most unusual one).

I do agree that Complete Divine does the worst job of it.

Cheers!

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

I am wondering if WOTC is falling into a sort of problem that TSR did. Back in the 2nd edition version of D&D it was settings. Tons of settings and accessories was very bad for the market. With 3.x currently I am seeing an avalanche of feats, prestige classes, does not look like it is stopping anytime soon.

The TSR problems that you refer to came about because TSR was the ONLY PUBLISHER of it all. EVERYTHING they published competed with everything ELSE they published for your D&D dollars. With 3rd party publishers this is no longer true. It may all still be too much bloat - but it's COMPETITIVE bloat, not suicidal bloat by ONE company.

 

[MerricB]

I take it you do not own the Complete Necromancer, then?

I do; late acquisition though, and you're quite right.

Cheers!

 

[JVisgaitis]

Historically D&D changes when the fans want a change (again, 3.5 being the exception). Market saturation hasn't been part of it.

I disagree 110%. WotC makes the market, and they'll decide when we're ready for 4e. TSR was a passive company and they paid for it. You won't see the same mistakes with WotC. They'll push a new edition as soon as the old one is no longer economically profitable which I would say is around... now.

 

[satori01]

I had said long ago after the publishing of Manual of the Planes in 3.0 that all the must have books have been published and everything else was optional.

I think that is true now, but the design for the books coming out recently seems much better than it was for the end of 3.0 and the beginning of 3.5.

PHB II, Complete Mage, Heroes of Horror come to mind.
For the more experimental crowd Bo9s I think really made it's mark, and classes like the Warmage, and Warlock are really popular.

Spell Compendium, just from a book keeping standpoint is a nice addition, and I think a Magic Item Compendium also makes a lot of sense, as does a Feat Compendium.

I am curious if the "graying " of the game also changes the 'bloat' point due to greater earnings . I am quite content to pre-order purchase the books and accessories that sound interesting to me off Amazon and other Discount Retailers, or PDFs of the internet.

At $17-$28 a pop, if a book inspires and idea, adds a monster or PrC that makes for a memorable villain, it is well worth the money. At another point in my life, I doubt I would say that.

 

[satori01]

I disagree 110%. WotC makes the market, and they'll decide when we're ready for 4e. TSR was a passive company and they paid for it. You won't see the same mistakes with WotC. They'll push a new edition as soon as the old one is no longer economically profitable which I would say is around... now.

There is a peril to pushing a new edition when the current one is robust enough to handle alot of changes. The 3.x rule system I think it the W.O.W. of game systems. It is fun, relatively easy to use, and built up quite a loyal fan base.

I frankly would rather see Modular rule changes to Skills, Uses per day, than a whole sale New Edition.

When you design a product on the sole basis to expand your market, I think you often miss out on just trying to make the product the best, or miss the pulse of fun, innovative design. EQ 2 did that. Sure it looked great, it had nice features in theory, it just was not fun.

3.x is fun. You can play core, You can play Homebrewed , DM created Plane Hopping Gestalt Jedi/ Aes Sedai/ Beguilers with Traits from Arcana Unearthed, Races from third party Material like Arcana Evolved, weapons from the D20 Modern and Swords and Reserve Feats....and it works.

4.0 is going to have a hard time toping the modularity and robustness of the system. Frankly I do not think it can. I am loath to break in another round of designers like we did in 3.0, when the designers learn to write for the system. I am loath to watch WOTC struggle through a round of bad initial products like the splat books in 3.0.

I am willing to outlay money for small rules bits for a proven system. I tend to think of it like putting a chrome bumper on a vehicle, it is a preference item that enhances the owners enjoyment.

From all the rumors, a 4e will be more miniature intense and have smaller rules packets, which frankly sounds like it is going the Warhammer route, and I think fans will not be receptive to it.

 

[megamania]

The phrase I think you are looking for is "Rules Bloat." And yes, they are. I now have Tome and Blood, The Complete Arcane and The Complete Mage on my shelf, and even though the Complete Mage has some excellent work in it, I just didn't read it with as much interest as I might have a couple of years ago. The ToB just didn't interest me. I'm done buying, and too busy playing. Most of my gaming money, anymore, goes into figurines and stuff to put on the battlemap.

This is where I'm at also. I have about 8 books I have yet to read. Why buy more when I'm so far behind and there are ready to use mini's out there....

 

[Geoffrey]

I think it's a shame that D&D is treated like a business rather than like a hobby. It's too bad that WotC won't do something like this:

1. Release D&D 4th edition in a single 128-page book. Obviously the game would be very streamlined. Make sure the book would be understandable to an adult who had never played any RPGs.

2. Let any one publish anything that could be used with D&D as long as the product made clear that the rulebook mentioned above was necessary for using the product. I'm talking carte blanche here: mind flayers, displacer beasts, you name it. Nothing taboo.

And that's it. Let fans drive the hobby, and let WotC just publish a slender volume of rules and get out of the way.

 

[Hussar]

The new monster manual format is not what i consider fluff.
In second edition a monster might have gotten 2-3 pages of material dealing with ecology, combat, description and such.

Now it is a stat block with the abilities listed and a very short description.

Where can I buy this book? I bought just about every MC appendix out there as well as the hard bound Monstrous Manual. At best you might have gotten 2 pages. 1 page was the standard.

Something to remember is that there is actually a lot less coming out per month now than say, 5 years ago. There are very few d20 publishers left. Sword and Sorcery was cranking out a Scarred Lands book just about every month. Mongoose had a fairly busy schedule. AEG was no slouch either. Now, the latter two don't publish any D&D books at all. That's not counting the plethora of smaller press publishers as well.

Then again, I should probably not talk all that much. I buy maybe 2 books a year now, in addition to my Dragon subscription, so, the whole rules bloat thing just passes me by.