Is WOTC falling into a problem like the old TSR did

[Jim Hague]

I think it's a shame that D&D is treated like a business rather than like a hobby.

Yeah, damn those publishers, writers and artists for wanting to actually make money doing something they enjoy! How dare they!

It's too bad that WotC won't do something like this:

1. Release D&D 4th edition in a single 128-page book. Obviously the game would be very streamlined. Make sure the book would be understandable to an adult who had never played any RPGs.

2. Let any one publish anything that could be used with D&D as long as the product made clear that the rulebook mentioned above was necessary for using the product. I'm talking carte blanche here: mind flayers, displacer beasts, you name it. Nothing taboo.

And that's it. Let fans drive the hobby, and let WotC just publish a slender volume of rules and get out of the way.

Except that is, by and large, what was done with 3e. Shall we go into the reasons why letting hobbyists instead of businesspeople run businesses is a bad idea? How dilution of intellectual property isn't good for anyone?

Again, apparently there's this group of people who seem to think that profit = bad! Fans are driving the hobby, FYI, and without some sound business sense, there's two places it'll be driven - further into a niche or into the ground.

 

[Crothian]

And that's it. Let fans drive the hobby, and let WotC just publish a slender volume of rules and get out of the way.

As in go out of business. And that would be the end of D&D. People say Wizards of the CAost is the RPG market, and if they fold they could take the hobby with them.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

One, it further fragments an already fragmented customer base.

I'm not convinced that's bad for the hobby.

Two, smaller profit margins mean fewer products which means ever diminishing returns for publishers.

I'm not convinced that's bad, either. (That is, smaller profit margins -- and again, I'm not looking at it as a company-owner, just as a gamer.) And I'm not sure about the "ever diminishing" part, either. Smaller, sure, but ever diminishing?

Three, it reduces the chances of producing an introductory RPG to the mainstream to precisely zero - and no new blood means the hobby dies a death by inches.

Introducing RPGs into the "mainstream" simply isn't something I care about. And I don't buy the "no new blood," thing, either. There'll still be new players. This is the kind of thing people have been saying about wargaming for years (i.e. that it will die), but it's still around, too. (In fact, there are a lot of great new wargames out right now.) Plus, the Internet has a big effect by making it easy for people who *are* interested in the hobby to find info on it and to connect with others.

Like I said, I'm not convinced that smaller and hobbyist is a bad thing.

I'm not particularly fond of WotC, but these nostaglia-based anti-3e threads are becoming...annoying. Why don't the posters simply be honest and say that they prefer previous editions or games instead? Save the rest of us a headache, why don'tcha.

Huh? Is this directed at my me/my post?

 

[Jim Hague]

I'm not convinced that's bad for the hobby.

And with this single statement, you do a fine job of proving my point.

I'm not convinced that's bad, either. And I'm not sure about the "ever diminishing" part, either. Smaller, sure, but ever diminishing?

And then further it. Resources are not infinite, as you seem to believe. Thus, by splitting the available resources further and further afield, you reduce what's available for everyone.

Introducing RPGs into the "mainstream" simply isn't something I care about. And I don't buy the "no new blood," thing, either. There'll still be new players. This is the kind of thing people have been saying about wargaming for years (i.e. that it will die), but it's still around, too. (In fact, there are a lot of great new wargames out right now.) Plus, the Internet has a big effect by making it easy for people who *are* interested in the hobby to find info on it and to connect with others.

Like I said, I'm not convinced that smaller and hobbyist is a bad thing.

Then I'm glad you're not in the business of making decisions for publishers. You may not care, but as with any hobby, introducing new people into it is essential for continued growth. And right now, it just ain't happening. Relying on existing groups, clubs or conventions simply isn't doing the job. A good, solid introductory system would bring a lot of new blood, and more importantly new ideas into the hobby.

And again, by fragmenting the base of players and purchasers (and I'm not speaking of diversity here, but tons of products covering the same ground and needlessly competing against each other), you reduce the already paper-thin slice of the gaming pie available to content producers. And at some point, you reach a state where the content producers move on. And that's not good for the hobby either.

 

[Umbran]

I'm not convinced that's bad, either. (That is, smaller profit margins -- and again, I'm not looking at it as a company-owner, just as a gamer.)

The thing to understand is that you really can't glibly separate the business from the hobby aspect. If people can't make enough money at it, you, as a gamer, will not see useful products. Period.

We are usually quick to say, "Well, all I really need is my imagination!" If that were really true, though, we wouln't care what other things WotC produced - we'd get the core rules, and walk away. Our behavior puts a lie to the statement. Overall, our continued fun at the hobby is strongly connected to the health of the business.

 

[Shadeydm]

My favorite part about the glut of books WoTC has been pumping out is reading John Coopers reviews as he tears apart thier less than stellar editing and stat blocks. Its totally priceless that the people at WoTC want to get top dollar but can't be bother get get a decent editor they should seriously hire JC lol.

 

[Jim Hague]

The thing to understand is that you really can't glibly separate the business from the hobby aspect. If people can't make enough money at it, you, as a gamer, will not see useful products. Period.

We are usually quick to say, "Well, all I really need is my imagination!" If that were really true, though, we wouln't care what other things WotC produced - we'd get the core rules, and walk away. Our behavior puts a lie to the statement. Overall, our continued fun at the hobby is strongly connected to the health of the business.

QFT, this.

You don't get good products from purely market-driven producers...and yes, yes, I can hear the cries of WotC as an Eeeeeevil Corporation already, but take a look at who actually produces the products - a stable of talented, driven folks, the majority of whom still game. Would you like to see Dungeon and Dragon reduced to the status of a fanzine or APA? No? How about the folks making stuff for all those games actually making a living wage for the hard work they put in?

That's where I'm coming from. I want to see the day where the RPG work people do does more than put a few measly bucks in their account. It can be done - look at Phil Reed or Green Ronin or even the much-maligned Mongoose Publishing, or Crafty Games. The folks in those ventures are talented, driven, and best of all, fellow gamers. I want to see them succeed as much as I want to succeed in my own ventures. And the RPG market remaining niche and run by pure hobbyists without a lick of business sense isn't the way that'll happen.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

And then further it. Resources are not infinite, as you seem to believe. Thus, by splitting the available resources further and further afield, you reduce what's available for everyone.

I'm not proposing that resources are infinite, but rather that the fragmentation is finite, as well. There would come a point when the fragmentation would cease, some companies would drop out, et cetera. I don't think returns would be "ever diminishing."

Then I'm glad you're not in the business of making decisions for publishers.

Of course, if I were in the business, making RPGs mainstream would definitely be a goal so my company could make more money. But I'm not. I'm looking at it solely as a gamer.

You may not care, but as with any hobby, introducing new people into it is essential for continued growth. And right now, it just ain't happening. Relying on existing groups, clubs or conventions simply isn't doing the job.

Well, yeah, I would think so. You're still assuming that continued growth is a self-evident "good." I don't think that's necessarily the case. I don't have a problem with a smaller hobby.

A good, solid introductory system would bring a lot of new blood, and more importantly new ideas into the hobby.

I'm not against an introductory system. Sounds okay to me. New blood is fine, too. You need some new players to maintain the hobby, even it is a small hobby with no overall growth.

And again, by fragmenting the base of players and purchasers (and I'm not speaking of diversity here, but tons of products covering the same ground and needlessly competing against each other), you reduce the already paper-thin slice of the gaming pie available to content producers. And at some point, you reach a state where the content producers move on. And that's not good for the hobby either.

Actually, that's the kind of thing that would keep the fragmentation from continuing indefinitely. Some content providers would drop out, the market would adjust, et cetera. That's especially true if there is "needless" competition out there.

In any case, it was just an offhand comment, and it won't happen, so I have no desire to beat the subject to death. The biggest RPG companies will always churn out more product and seek to grow the market. And if history is any guide, we'll continue to buy it. And the carousel will keep going 'round. (Except for a few grumpy old guys who'll get off and play with their outdated 3E stuff the rest of their lives.)

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

The thing to understand is that you really can't glibly separate the business from the hobby aspect. If people can't make enough money at it, you, as a gamer, will not see useful products. Period.

I don't think it's all-or-nothing. Fewer products, certainly. No useful products? Sorry, I just don't buy it. A smaller, more hobbyist market isn't doomed to death. Again, I cite the wargame market. It's smaller than it used to be, and there's no Avalon Hill out there right now. But there are a LOT of really great wargames that are being produced.

 

[Glyfair]

Again, apparently there's this group of people who seem to think that profit = bad! Fans are driving the hobby, FYI, and without some sound business sense, there's two places it'll be driven - further into a niche or into the ground.

I'll note this attitude isn't new. Early Dragon's had Gygax defending himself & TSR because they dared exert their trademark/copyrights for D&D. Some felt they should be able to photocopy the rules and pass them to their friends, professionally publish D&D supplements, etc.

I thought it was in my Dragon Review thread, but it must have been an issue I covered in the thread that was lost durng the big crash.