Is Wraithstrike the wrong level?

[Rystil Arden]

One other thing we are forgetting is the inclusion of crits. Increasing the to hit also greatly increases the chance of critical hits, which will do even more damage than basic spells.

Well, it certainly increases the chance to confirm, but it doesn't really increase crit chance much more than wielding a Blessed weapon, plus I think we want to look at a typical case of Wraithstrike rather than defaulting to chance--there are all sorts of things that will kill the enemy if they roll quite low or you roll quite high, but the key to Wraithstrike's brokenness is that it doesn't require that degree of chance.

 

[RigaMortus2]

9th level (ftr1/wizard5/knight phantom 3): BAB +6, still same +1 greatsword (+10/+5 to hit, notice two attacks) and picked up arcane strike. Several times at this level managed to get in combat while hasted and blinking. DM got a bit bug eyed when I hit one of his troll-barbarians for 90 HP and did the same to a 2nd one the next round. The same level I took out his BBEG wizard (12th level I believe) when I did approx 114 points of damage (3 attacks, all hit, burned detect scrying into arcane strike since I wasn't using it)(stoneskin? fire/acid/cold resistance? good saves? who cares). As you can see it rapidly escalated at 9th level - and I'm not that optimized. I have a +1 sword and 14 strength. It'll only get higher from here.

And how did your other encounters go that day?

 

[Rystil Arden]

And how did your other encounters go that day?

Probably pretty well, considering he only needed to use one 4th-level spell (burnt for the AS), one 3rd-level spell (the buff), and one 2nd (Wraithstrike, of course) out of his entire arsenal to kill the Party Level +3 BBEG.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Probably pretty well, considering he only needed to use one 4th-level spell (burnt for the AS), one 3rd-level spell (the buff), and one 2nd (Wraithstrike, of course) out of his entire arsenal to kill the Party Level +3 BBEG.

Assuming he has the "standard" 4 person party, and they are all the same level... A single 12th-level character is hardly a challenge for a party of 4 9th-level characters. Plus we don't know any more specifics (was the BBEG prepared? Did they sneak up on him? How did you get to do a full attack on a wizard? etc. etc.) If he had mooks with him, or there were encounters before or after him, that is a different story. Hence my question of "how did your other encounters go that day?"

I'm not arguing that he didn't do a lot of damage, but I don't think he did that much damage for a melee-type of that level.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Assuming he has the "standard" 4 person party, and they are all the same level... A single 12th-level character is hardly a challenge for a party of 4 9th-level characters. Plus we don't know any more specifics (was the BBEG prepared? Did they sneak up on him? How did you get to do a full attack on a wizard? etc. etc.) If he had mooks with him, or there were encounters before or after him, that is a different story. Hence my question of "how did your other encounters go that day?"

I'm not arguing that he didn't do a lot of damage, but I don't think he did that much damage for a melee-type of that level.

Actually, I'm not even arguing he did that much more damage than a melee type of that level *could* do. I've seen that much damage from a Power Attacking Barbarian of the same level. The problem lies in the fact that the Wraithstriker's success was basically guaranteed, and the Barbarian only did that much damage becuase he got consistently high rolls.

 

[molonel]

We allowed one character in our WLD the ability to manufacture an item. He was our frontline fighter. People around the table perked up and took notice during the first combat he used it. Maybe it was a quirk, says I. Then, after the second combat, everyone said, "Holy s***! I gotta get me one of those!"

That's all the evidence I need. Wraithstrike is banned in all of my games. If that's not sufficient logic for anyone else, oh well.

 

[Mort]

And how did your other encounters go that day?

Those were the "big" encounters on their respective day, the others required significantly less resources (The wizard encounter, between wizard and goons was around CR 15 against our 9-10 level party) as such I had no problem going "full bore" against these encounters. That's not meta-game thinking - it was balatantly obvious to the group that if the wizard encounter was beaten the bad guys were broken and we could be relatively relaxed. This is the true power of having a big gun; when you need it it's there.

Also, you seem to be implying this was some huge spell expenditure. It really wasn't.

As a 9th level specialist (diviner) wizard with 16 int at the time I have: 5/6/5/4/2 for spells. The troll encounter involved 1 scorching ray and 2 wraithstrikes (false life already up, it lasts 9 hours!). I had a huge amount left for anything later.

The wizard encounter involved a large amount of spells. But this isn't some constantly monster generating dungeon; we had plenty of opportunity to retreat and regroup if things didn't go our way (as it stood, I didn't even need the dimension door I had memorized). Also I have scribe scroll, and made sure to be prepared for emergencies (dimension door, expeditious retreat, a few buff spells etc.) later in the day would not have been a problem, even if it came up.

 

[Mort]

Assuming he has the "standard" 4 person party, and they are all the same level... A single 12th-level character is hardly a challenge for a party of 4 9th-level characters. Plus we don't know any more specifics (was the BBEG prepared? Did they sneak up on him? How did you get to do a full attack on a wizard? etc. etc.) If he had mooks with him, or there were encounters before or after him, that is a different story. Hence my question of "how did your other encounters go that day?"

I'm not arguing that he didn't do a lot of damage, but I don't think he did that much damage for a melee-type of that level.

sigh: as I said it was the 12th level caster plus several goons. I don't have my notes with me but it was something like: 4 Half-Orc barbarians ( 6th level barb/fighters? not sure) 1 human lieutenant (around 6th level?) the human captain (7th) and the mage's apprentice (7th level I think). They were prepared for us (the mages in particular had several protections up), but we had the advantage of position (they had to open a door to get to us). The true turning point was battlefield control because I managed to get off an Evard’s black tentacles on the lieutenant and captain (off a scroll) and the pixie managed to touch of idiocy the mage’s apprentice.

The group at the time
Human Ftr 1/Cleric 8
Pixie Sorceress 5 (9th level character)
Me ( human ftr 1/wiz 5/knight phantom 3)
Fighter 8 (He is a pole-arm specialist: previous character became and NPC after succumbing to full lycanthropy, so he came in 1 level lower).

I’d say I was doing significantly more damage than the fighter when necessary in the encounter.

When I ran my ebberron campaign the 10th level barb could easily do 60 per round, if lucky could push 80, but only with a critical on his great axe could he do better than the 114 I mentioned.

Looking at it, if you have a truly optimized fighter, they can approach the damage, but against certain monsters – Dragons, High CR demons/devils where the touch AC is far below the regular AC, they will not be able to get anywhere near it.

edited for clarity and to tone down response

 

[Blightersbane]

continuing along the line of devils advocate

8th level (5Ftr /3Wiz)
greatsword = 2d6 dam
+5 dam from 20 str
X 3 attacks assuming haste has been cast and all attacks are successful
= a lot less than the mega damage you quoted? what am I over looking or unaware of in you example?


edit: I JUST SAW USING ARCANE STRIKE ON OTHER POST, STILL IT'S NOW UP TOO 3 SPELLS)

Blightersbaneb

 

[Rystil Arden]

continuing along the line of devils advocate

8th level (5Ftr /3Wiz)
greatsword = 2d6 dam
+5 dam from 20 str
X 3 attacks assuming haste has been cast and all attacks are successful
= a lot less than the mega damage you quoted? what am I over looking or unaware of in you example?

Bb

You're missing quite a lot, actually. First, you forgot 1.5x Str bonus to damage on a two-handed weapon. Next, full Power Attack--Wraithstrike means you hit anyway. Finally, Arcane Strike brings in the last bit.