Is Wraithstrike the wrong level?

[Blightersbane]

what forms of AC buffs are not effected by wraithstrike? shields, rings, dex, dodge, natural armor? what about fortification armor? I dont have access to books, please advise

Bb

 

[Mort]

continuing along the line of devils advocate

8th level (5Ftr /3Wiz)
greatsword = 2d6 dam
+5 dam from 20 str
X 3 attacks assuming haste has been cast and all attacks are successful
= a lot less than the mega damage you quoted? what am I over looking or unaware of in you example?

Bb

You're overlooking the wraithstrike spell and Arcane strike, the whole point of discussion.

breaking it down: Ftr 1/Wiz 5/knight phantom 3 (9th level) (going from memory so I doubt it's 100% accurate, but it's close):
3 attacks that hit:
Damage from 3 attacks (2d6 each): 24
damage from strength and weapon (calculated 7, str: was 18 at the time): 21
Full power attack (I'm only trying to hit a touch AC and arcane strike gives me a +4 to hit anyway): 36
Arcane strike 4th level spell 3 attacks:30

Total damage: 111

edit: just to point out that the power attack damage will go up by 2/level for every attack so If you have 4 attacks and are 19th level power attack damage is now an extra 32 per attack (instead of the 12 I was getting) or 128 for 4 attacks.

 

[Mort]

what forms of AC buffs are not effected by wraithstrike? shields, rings, dex, dodge, natural armor? what about fortification armor? I dont have access to books, please advise

Bb

Wraithstrike = touch AC only -no armor bonus, no shield bonus, no natural armor bonus. If you have blink or invisibility active - no dexterity bonus either. So most of the time you're aiming to hit AC 10-15 even on truly nasty monsters.

Just as an example: standard fire giant regular AC:23, touch AC: 8
or how about a balor: Regular AC 35, Touch AC: 16.

It's not a small difference.

 

[Mystery Man]

Who he has played with Wraithsrtike as written, for a reasonable period of time, and found it unbalanced your game?

Raise your hand, and then explain how it unbalanced your game.

I'm just not buying it. I see a lot of comparisons to other spells, usually other metamagiced spells (which is a bad example because metamagic is a general application to a specific spell which can be tweaked in it's own right in MANY ways, while this is a specific spell without that general application). I see a lot of theoretical maybes. I don't see anyone actually coming with experience with this spell over a decent period of time and reporting it had the negative impact on games that so many people seem to be predicting.

In fact, I think not coincidentally, I see some of the same names in this thread claiming a spell is overpowered that I see in virtually every thread in this forum when there is a claim that something is overpowered. Some people just think a large portion of the rules, and rules intepretations, are overpowered, and will default to that position on virtually any topic. I don't fault them for consistently making this claim about various rules, but I do think it's worth pointing out so that a false impression is not made that a majority of people think this rule, or all those other rules, are so overpowered. Sometimes a minority can be very loud.

It is absolutely, rediculously overpowered. Having firsthand experience with it in game I can tell you that it is unbalancing especially coupled with feats that allow a player to cast it on himself in perpetuity. IE Persistent Spell. This player will overshadow other players and walk through most encounters involving combat far too easily for the CR. I have had first hand experience with this and can without any remorse ban the spell permanently for all time from my game.

 

[Blightersbane]

whats good for the goose....

 

[Mystery Man]

whats good for the goose....

Pithy.

 

[Mort]

whats good for the goose....

It's ridiculously easy for the DM to kill the PC's. The goal is to challenge them, not find more ways to kill them.

 

[Mistwell]

Are you guys almost exclusively fighting stuff with AC's provided by armor and natural armor, instead of dodge bonuses and size and those kinds of defenses? In my experience, there are a TON of opponants that see little or no harm from wraithstrike.

In addition, y'all seem to be describing wratihstrike as an auto-hit. And yet, has anyone ever described ray spells as auto-hits? Melee touch attacks from other spells as auto-hits? Warlocks use a touch attack as their primary weapon, is that an auto-hit too? Unless your opponant has a lot of armor or natural armor, wraitstrike doesn't even do a whole lot for you, given you have a lower BAB than most melee combatants.

Lots of spells (and other abilities) look very powerful on paper, and rotten in practice. Use wraitstrike in practice, and I think most people will find it isn't nearly as bad as what it seems. Same thing that happened with Warlocks...tons of people paniced about them being "overpowered" and didn't allow them in their games because of rumors of them being overpowered. A few allowed them in for one or two battles and concluded they were overpowered (because it made for new tactics), without giving them a reasonable chance over a period of time. And only in time was it discovered (by most) that warlocks were not only fine, but perhaps a tad bit underpowered.

 

[Mistwell]

It is absolutely, rediculously overpowered. Having firsthand experience with it in game I can tell you that it is unbalancing especially coupled with feats that allow a player to cast it on himself in perpetuity. IE Persistent Spell. This player will overshadow other players and walk through most encounters involving combat far too easily for the CR. I have had first hand experience with this and can without any remorse ban the spell permanently for all time from my game.

Well of course wraithstrike is overpowered if you allow it to be persisted. Persistant spell, particularly with divine metamagic, IS the most overpowered combo that is typically allowed in games!

If your conclusions are based on an epxerience involving this spell persisted, then you have not given the spell a fair chance.

 

[Mort]

Are you guys almost exclusively fighting stuff with AC's provided by armor and natural armor, instead of dodge bonuses and size and those kinds of defenses? In my experience, there are a TON of opponants that see little or no harm from wraithstrike.

In addition, y'all seem to be describing wratihstrike as an auto-hit. And yet, has anyone ever described ray spells as auto-hits? Melee touch attacks from other spells as auto-hits? Warlocks use a touch attack as their primary weapon, is that an auto-hit too? Unless your opponant has a lot of armor or natural armor, wraitstrike doesn't even do a whole lot for you, given you have a lower BAB than most melee combatants.

Lots of spells (and other abilities) look very powerful on paper, and rotten in practice. Use wraitstrike in practice, and I think most people will find it isn't nearly as bad as what it seems. Same thing that happened with Warlocks...tons of people paniced about them being "overpowered" and didn't allow them in their games because of rumors of them being overpowered. A few allowed them in for one or two battles and concluded they were overpowered (because it made for new tactics), without giving them a reasonable chance over a period of time. And only in time was it discovered (by most) that warlocks were not only fine, but perhaps a tad bit underpowered.

Nope sometimes you just see that something is too good in play. As far as auto hit - yes it is because of arcane strike - the whole point is that it lynchpins a really powerful combo not that it's just powerful in itself (for example use blink or improved invisibility and Dex bonus is out too: that big nasty Balor without DEX touch AC of 9, Solar Touch AC 14, 9 without Dex, Titan - touch AC 8).

As for over reacting - hey I'm the one playing the fighter/mage and I just see how ridiculous it will be in a few levels. It's not quite horrible now, but with every level this one second level spell will increasingly be the best option. Heck if I wanted to really break it, I'd take the normally sub optimal extend spell and as a 3rd level spell get the benefits for 2 rounds with every casting.

I'll spell it out: wraithstrike is rotten at low levels but (for ftr/mages) gets progressively better until it's absolutely huge. The main reason is simple: Touch AC's don't scale for most opponents they are just as bad at low levels as high levels; as opposed to regular AC's which go through the roof. If something actually has a good touch AC, well there are plenty of other good options for the exception.

Other stuff:
Warlock in play - no problem
Warblade in play - much better on paper than in actual play, though quite fun, same goes for the Crusader (though they outperform the warblade).