Is Wraithstrike the wrong level?

[Rystil Arden]

Who he has played with Wraithsrtike as written, for a reasonable period of time, and found it unbalanced your game?

Raise your hand, and then explain how it unbalanced your game.

I'm just not buying it. I see a lot of comparisons to other spells, usually other metamagiced spells (which is a bad example because metamagic is a general application to a specific spell which can be tweaked in it's own right in MANY ways, while this is a specific spell without that general application). I see a lot of theoretical maybes. I don't see anyone actually coming with experience with this spell over a decent period of time and reporting it had the negative impact on games that so many people seem to be predicting.

In fact, I think not coincidentally, I see some of the same names in this thread claiming a spell is overpowered that I see in virtually every thread in this forum when there is a claim that something is overpowered. Some people just think a large portion of the rules, and rules intepretations, are overpowered, and will default to that position on virtually any topic. I don't fault them for consistently making this claim about various rules, but I do think it's worth pointing out so that a false impression is not made that a majority of people think this rule, or all those other rules, are so overpowered. Sometimes a minority can be very loud.

Mistwell, you're purposely biasing and self-selecting your response when you ask for a group that has played for a 'reasonable amount of time' and found it unbalanced because in this case, it is so atrocious that most groups are going to ban it after only a few sessions if they allow it at all in the first place (and those who don't ban it immediately are going to be groups who don't ban anything and thus will never ban it). I played with it, and as soon as it appeared in play it was so unbalanced and so obviously unbalanced immediately that everyone in the group wanted it gone). This is likely the case for most groups that used Wraithstrike, and thus it is only the few groups that don't find the spell unbalanced that will meet your criteria (although I don't know how much time you consider 'reasonable', so maybe I actually do meet it).

My experience was a TPK of the party, except one NPC who ran away, by a Wraithstrike-using NPC gish that was supposed to be a mook encounter (he was the same level as the party and all alone). He killed the Cleric immediately, survived whatever the Wizard did, the Rogue's non-sneak-attack, and the Barbarian's charge. He then killed both the Wizard and the Rogue on the next round, and killed the Barbarian on either the following round or the one after.

I will admit that, for instance, Nail is known for harping on Psionics for being overpowered, and I disagree with him on it, and other people have opinions on what is overpowered and what is not that differs and varies widely. However, I don't think it is hyperbole to say that out of everything published since 3.5 in supplements by Wizards of the Coast, there are very few (if any) pieces of crunch more universally considered broken than Wraithstrike (note, I didn't say it was completely universal, just more universal than any other. I also didn't say it was the most broken, just the most-agreed-upon as such).

EDIT: I should probably mention that the horribly-broken problem Wraithstrike happened even after I preemptively made it a Standard, rather than Swift, action (it was Quickened).

 

[Stalker0]

I agree with Rystil, while experience is always the final authority, there are times when you can look at the numbers and find something out of whack.

Let's say I wanted to change fireball to do 2d6 points of damage per level instead of 1d6. With some raw math, you can easily show how fireball is overpowered in this version (basically, it can TPK a 5th level party with one casting).

I'm looking at the numbers, and to me wraithstrike comes out ahead of the game.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I agree with Rystil, while experience is always the final authority, there are times when you can look at the numbers and find something out of whack.

Let's say I wanted to change fireball to do 2d6 points of damage per level instead of 1d6. With some raw math, you can easily show how fireball is overpowered in this version (basically, it can TPK a 5th level party with one casting).

I'm looking at the numbers, and to me wraithstrike comes out ahead of the game.

Yes--for what it's worth, Wraithstrike taught me that whenever I get a hunch like that, I need to playtest the rule extensively first before allowing it. After doing so with Wraithstrike, I can confidently say that in playtest scenarios, Wraithstrike will let a casual non-optimised gish with Power Attack and Arcane Strike win virtually 100% of battles with a single CR-appropriate opponent (and many opponents with such high CR that they should have beaten you badly) who attacks you with damage (virtually in this case means that it doesn't work against the few critters that get all their AC from something touch won't help with, although you can still win against Monks without using Wraithstrike because they're Monks). You might lose against something with a save-or-die if you lose initiative and fail your save. In a party, you're even better off because the enemy might not target you first, not realising you are going to be killing them instantly once you get next to them. Other than human targets and perhaps buffs if they have time or healing if you're fighting so many things that they actually get to hit you, the party contributes nothing to you because you can kill everything yourself (unless the GM puts in things so strong that they would wipe everyone else away, the eternal dilemma with a broken character).

 

[shilsen]

Who he has played with Wraithsrtike as written, for a reasonable period of time, and found it unbalanced your game?

Raise your hand, and then explain how it unbalanced your game.

What about those people who read it, worked out exactly what it would do in the game, and therefore removed it before doing so? Anecdotal evidence is useful to show that people made a mistake in allowing something. That doesn't invalidate the opinions of people who were smart enough to see the problem and not even allow it to occur.

To turn your question on its head, I'd like to see some anecdotes from people who've used Wraithstrike as written for a reasonable period of time and found it completely acceptable.

 

[Blightersbane]

I hear ya! No argument intended. That being said heres my unintended argument.

Wraithstrike is powerful however only at later levels, heres why. WS is a 2nd level spell so it requires a minimum of a 3rd level Sorcerer or Wizard to cast. In order to be truly effective you need to have multiple attacks with it. As we all know the melee prowess of the arcane casters leaves much to be desired with a meager ½ bab so a straight classes caster will find it hard to benefit from, so multiclassing is the answer, right? This same multiclassed individual would need to have a bab of 6 or more for a second attack. In order to get a 6 bab and be able to cast WS your looking at a multiclassed 5th level fighter / 3rd level Wizard, that’s an 8th level pc. Over powered not yet! Not until he is an E-Knight or spell sword at about 15th + level where he can really cause some good damage in 1 round. But by then with spells such as save or die in the mix who cares about a guy with limited melee and limited casting ability who can cause good damage for a melee round or two?


Multiclassing is synonomous with compromise which = neither side is truly satisfied in this case nether class is any good

Blightersbane

I'm not disputing that. I am disagreeing that Hold Person + Coup de Grace is one of them.

"Over powering" typically means "much better than other tactics" or "not balanced with respect to the rest of the game". Wraithstrike fits that definition. Hold Person + Coup de Grace (that requires one PC to cast and another to be adjacent and full round action)? Not so much.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I hear ya! No argument intended. That being said heres my unintended argument.

Wraithstrike is powerful however only at later levels, heres why. WS is a 2nd level spell so it requires a minimum of a 3rd level Sorcerer or Wizard to cast. In order to be truly effective you need to have multiple attacks with it. As we all know the melee prowess of the arcane casters leaves much to be desired with a meager ½ bab so a straight classes caster will find it hard to benefit from, so multiclassing is the answer, right? This same multiclassed individual would need to have a bab of 6 or more for a second attack. In order to get a 6 bab and be able to cast WS your looking at a multiclassed 5th level fighter / 3rd level Wizard, that’s an 8th level pc. Over powered not yet! Not until he is an E-Knight or spell sword at about 15th + level where he can really cause some good damage in 1 round. But by then with spells such as save or die in the mix who cares about a guy with limited melee and limited casting ability who can cause good damage for a melee round or two?


Multiclassing is synonomous with compromise which = neither side is truly satisfied in this case nether class is any good

Blightersbane

I think you put too much weight on save-or-die. The crucial part of the picture is that save-or-die is, well, save-or-die. They get a save, and most enemies that are not just NPCs with class levels will make that save. Wraithstrike is broken because when used to its full potential, it is not save-or-die: it is just die, without a save.

I also think you are underestimating the effects of three attacks (don't forget Haste!) made with Wraithstrike at level 8, but admittedly it gets even more obscene at higher levels.

 

[Blightersbane]

Don’t forget with WS a roll to hit is still needed and with split class your bab is going to be lacking sometimes as much as the armor bonus your surpassing via the usage of this spell. Also there are many other ways to buff ones ac other than armor. But I admit at higher levels from a multiclassed pc vs. a armor dependant opponent, in melee range, for 1 round yes this spell can potentially down a strong opponent.

For constant obscene damage try a rogue lycanthrope (tiger) or rogue druid in any big cat form. 4 claw and 1 bite all w/ sneak attack damage + str, assuming success of the sneak attack this overrides dex and related bonuses to ac.

Blightersbane

 

[Rystil Arden]

Don’t forget with WS a roll to hit is still needed and with split class your bab is going to be lacking sometimes as much as the armor bonus your surpassing via the usage of this spell. Also there are many other ways to buff ones ac other than armor. But I admit at higher levels from a multiclassed pc vs. a armor dependant opponent, in melee range, for 1 round yes this spell can potentially down a strong opponent.

For constant obscene damage try a rogue lycanthrope (tiger) or rogue druid in any big cat form. 4 claw and 1 bite all w/ sneak attack damage + str, assuming success of the sneak attack this overrides dex and related bonuses to ac.

Blightersbane

You are most certainly not going to be missing more attack bonus than the armour bonus you bypass unless you're fighting something incorporeal or a very underequipped Monk (one who doesn't even bother with Bracers of Armour/Mage Armour or Amulet of Natural Armour). Until level 15, your basic gish (an Eldritch Knight) is missing 3 attack bonus from a full BAB class. Afterwards, if she so chooses and eschews more spells, she can continue only missing 3 attack bonus .

And don't forget that you're gaining an attack bonus from Arcane Strike as well.

The Rogue Lycanthrope and Rogue/Druid are once again (like the Hold Person example) examples of significantly weaker choices: To get the number of attacks you specify, you'll need to charge into a sneak attack (much easier said than done), and the damage is likely to be much less than the Wraithstriker regardless.

How much do you think the Wraithstriker is doing? At level 8, unless you can stop her from hitting (and you almost certainly can't afford enough gear to do so by then), she's doing over 123 damage (123 uses a conservative estimate of a vanilla +1 Greatsword, 20 Strength, and no further buffs to damage--just Haste, which is probably less than she'll have). By 14, it's around 276 (that's with only 22 Strength and a vanilla +3 Greatsword, no further buffs to damage--just Haste).

If your Rogue-cat example somehow managed a Sneak Pounce and hit with everything (which it won't because it doesn't ignore most of their armour), well, you can't even be a Weretiger or turn into a decent cat at level 8, so we'll have to move directly to level 14 to compare the Weretiger, at which point you'll do 112 Damage assuming 30 Strength.

 

[Stalker0]

One other thing we are forgetting is the inclusion of crits. Increasing the to hit also greatly increases the chance of critical hits, which will do even more damage than basic spells.

 

[Mort]

Who he has played with Wraithsrtike as written, for a reasonable period of time, and found it unbalanced your game?

Raise your hand, and then explain how it unbalanced your game.

I'm just not buying it. I see a lot of comparisons to other spells, usually other metamagiced spells (which is a bad example because metamagic is a general application to a specific spell which can be tweaked in it's own right in MANY ways, while this is a specific spell without that general application). I see a lot of theoretical maybes. I don't see anyone actually coming with experience with this spell over a decent period of time and reporting it had the negative impact on games that so many people seem to be predicting.

In fact, I think not coincidentally, I see some of the same names in this thread claiming a spell is overpowered that I see in virtually every thread in this forum when there is a claim that something is overpowered. Some people just think a large portion of the rules, and rules intepretations, are overpowered, and will default to that position on virtually any topic. I don't fault them for consistently making this claim about various rules, but I do think it's worth pointing out so that a false impression is not made that a majority of people think this rule, or all those other rules, are so overpowered. Sometimes a minority can be very loud.

The reason you don't see it come up often is that for it to get truly nasty you need a fighter/mage of 14+ level or so (when they can get 3 attacks per round). Not many campaigns get that high and even fewer have a dedicated fighter/mage.

That said I'm currently playing a fighter/mage. He's currently 10th level and I have wraithstrike, here's the progression:

3rd level (ftr 1/wizard 3): Picked up wraithstrike, tried it out. Only use at this level is because otherwise I can't hit sqaut (+2 BAB +6 with strength/weapon focus and masterwork greatsword).

7th level (ftr1/wizard 5/knight phantom 1): BAB +4 and I have a +1 greatsword(+8 to hit total). wraithstrike can do moderate damage, but I was much better off with scorching ray and slots were better used for things like alter self and false life.

9th level (ftr1/wizard5/knight phantom 3): BAB +6, still same +1 greatsword (+10/+5 to hit, notice two attacks) and picked up arcane strike. Several times at this level managed to get in combat while hasted and blinking. DM got a bit bug eyed when I hit one of his troll-barbarians for 90 HP and did the same to a 2nd one the next round. The same level I took out his BBEG wizard (12th level I believe) when I did approx 114 points of damage (3 attacks, all hit, burned detect scrying into arcane strike since I wasn't using it)(stoneskin? fire/acid/cold resistance? good saves? who cares). As you can see it rapidly escalated at 9th level - and I'm not that optimized. I have a +1 sword and 14 strength. It'll only get higher from here.

Haven't had a chance to use it at 10th level (only combat we've gotten into so far I attacked to subdue).

Make of that what you will, but notice, the lynchpin to the serious damage is the 2nd level wraithstrike.

[edited for proper numbers]