Is Wraithstrike the wrong level?

[Rystil Arden]

Are you guys almost exclusively fighting stuff with AC's provided by armor and natural armor, instead of dodge bonuses and size and those kinds of defenses? In my experience, there are a TON of opponants that see little or no harm from wraithstrike.

In addition, y'all seem to be describing wratihstrike as an auto-hit. And yet, has anyone ever described ray spells as auto-hits? Melee touch attacks from other spells as auto-hits? Warlocks use a touch attack as their primary weapon, is that an auto-hit too? Unless your opponant has a lot of armor or natural armor, wraitstrike doesn't even do a whole lot for you, given you have a lower BAB than most melee combatants.

Lots of spells (and other abilities) look very powerful on paper, and rotten in practice. Use wraitstrike in practice, and I think most people will find it isn't nearly as bad as what it seems. Same thing that happened with Warlocks...tons of people paniced about them being "overpowered" and didn't allow them in their games because of rumors of them being overpowered. A few allowed them in for one or two battles and concluded they were overpowered (because it made for new tactics), without giving them a reasonable chance over a period of time. And only in time was it discovered (by most) that warlocks were not only fine, but perhaps a tad bit underpowered.

Uhhh, I think the consensus is that the Warlock's Eldritch Blast basically is an autohit if the Warlock is working at it (Halflings who pump Dex and take Point Blank or Weapon Focus or both, for instance), and a Wraithstrike gish will typically have a higher bonus to the attack than the Warlock by a substantial margin (higher BAB, enhancement bonus to weapon attack rolls, Arcane Strike). Doesn't mean it's overpowered, though, as it isn't very strong (and it also allows SR if you don't use Vitriolic Blast, which then allows Acid Resist). For what it's worth, I never for a moment considered Warlocks to be overpowered. The people who thought they were are like the people who thought Mystic Theurge was overpowered when they saw it on paper. For both Warlock and Mystic Theurge, I could tell they were perfectly balanced, if not a tad weak. For Divine Metamagic + Persistant, I could tell it was broken beyond belief. Same with Wraithstrike.

As for "exclusively fighting stuff with AC provided by armour and natural armour", first, they don't need to get all their AC from those places, since as long as they get a large enough amount of AC from those sources, they're screwed on the Wraithstrike. Second, if you take a look at the monster books, you'll see that very few creatures, apart from incorporeal ones, have a substantial Touch AC that is also substnatial compared to their total AC (Having a low AC that is all there for Touch doesn't matter--you don't even need Wraithstrike to kill that). Sure, some of them do, but the vast majority do not. That leaves NPCs with PC classes such as Monk, but if they're not using magic items that you can cut through with Wraithstrike, you'll hit those anyway.

The key point, however, is that just because a few things are immune to it doesn't mean it isn't completely broken. Imagine the Rogue's Sneak Attack instantly killed its target with no save, SR, etc. The fact that you can't Sneak Attack constructs, oozes, plants, or undead would not stop it from being broken (and the number of monsters that can't be Sneak Attacked is much higher than the number of monsters that aren't screwed when you Wraithstrike).

 

[Mistwell]

Nope sometimes you just see that something is too good in play. As far as auto hit - yes it is because of arcane strike - the whole point is that it lynchpins a really powerful combo not that it's just powerful in itself (for example use blink or improved invisibility and Dex bonus is out too: that big nasty Balor without DEX touch AC of 9, Solar Touch AC 14, 9 without Dex, Titan - touch AC 8).

Coulding scorching ray and invisibility or blink do you just as well however? Vampiric Touch? Arcane strike plus invisibility makes lots of melee touch attack spells very powerful, but nobody complains about those spells or makes outrageous exagerations like "should be a ninth level spell instead of a second level spell"!

As for over reacting - hey I'm the one playing the fighter/mage and I just see how ridiculous it will be in a few levels. It's not quite horrible now, but with every level this one second level spell will increasingly be the best option. Heck if I wanted to really break it, I'd take the normally sub optimal extend spell and as a 3rd level spell get the benefits for 2 rounds with every casting.

As it becomes a problem, I strongly suspect you will find it starts to level out. Just watch.

I'll spell it out: wraithstrike is rotten at low levels but (for ftr/mages) gets progressively better until it's absolutely huge. The main reason is simple: Touch AC's don't scale for most opponents they are just as bad at low levels as high levels; as opposed to regular AC's which go through the roof.

And I will spell it out...regular ACs don't actually keep up at the rate you seem to think they do. Normal ACs start to level off, and most nasty things start to use other things to protect themselves than armor and natural armor. We have long debated this topic on these forums, and I think we reached as much consensus as can be reached that ACs don't scale like attack bonuses scale at higher levels.

For a while, wraithstrike will seem great. Eventually, it will become sub-optimal. Which means for the career of your character, it will not be all that great.

 

[Mistwell]

Uhhh, I think the consensus is that the Warlock's Eldritch Blast basically is an autohit if the Warlock is working at it (Halflings who pump Dex and take Point Blank or Weapon Focus or both, for instance)

No, it isn't. Not even close. Almost nobody thinks there is consensus on warlock's eldritch blast being an auto-hit in the overwhelming majority of characters out there. If you think some perfect combo makes it an auto-hit, that doesn't mean it's an auto-hit abilty, it just means you can create a power combo to make it more powerful (which you can do for just about anything).

and a Wraithstrike gish will typically have a higher bonus to the attack than the Warlock by a substantial margin (higher BAB, enhancement bonus to weapon attack rolls, Arcane Strike).

Warlock can multiclass just like the wizard or sorceror. Compare apples to apples.

Doesn't mean it's overpowered, though, as it isn't very strong (and it also allows SR if you don't use Vitriolic Blast, which then allows Acid Resist).

It's stronger than most weapons that a gish would have, in play.

As for "exclusively fighting stuff with AC provided by armour and natural armour", first, they don't need to get all their AC from those places, since as long as they get a large enough amount of AC from those sources, they're screwed on the Wraithstrike.

Not really. We are talking about a relatively small increase. And increase which is almost porportional to the BAB decrease you experience by doing this trick, and still having enough of these spells to make it a tactic as opposed to a couple of times a day trick.

Second, if you take a look at the monster books, you'll see that very few creatures, apart from incorporeal ones, have a substantial Touch AC that is also substnatial compared to their total AC (Having a low AC that is all there for Touch doesn't matter--you don't even need Wraithstrike to kill that).

In play, with experience, a LOT of stuff depends on things that wraithstrike doesn't help with. It might be a dodge bonus, it might be a size bonus, it might be a spell, it might be an ability, it might be movement to somewhere else (full cover, or teleporting, or flight, or burrow, etc...), whatever. But in practice, armor and natural armor is not really as all-critical as you make it out to be. Particularly at high levels, which is when wraithstrike is "supposed" to be really useful.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Coulding scorching ray and invisibility or blink do you just as well however? Vampiric Touch? Arcane strike plus invisibility makes lots of melee touch attack spells very powerful, but nobody complains about those spells or makes outrageous exagerations like "should be a ninth level spell instead of a second level spell"!



As it becomes a problem, I strongly suspect you will find it starts to level out. Just watch.



And I will spell it out...regular ACs don't actually keep up at the rate you seem to think they do. Normal ACs start to level off, and most nasty things start to use other things to protect themselves than armor and natural armor. We have long debated this topic on these forums, and I think we reached as much consensus as can be reached that ACs don't scale like attack bonuses scale at higher levels.

For a while, wraithstrike will seem great. Eventually, it will become sub-optimal. Which means for the career of your character, it will not be all that great.

Those spells do not hit for nearly as much as a Power Attacking Wraithstriker, even with Arcane Strike. Vampiric Touch? Scorching Ray? Trivial damage. It doesn't matter if you're guaranteed to hit. If all of them hit (and they probably will) Scorching Ray does 42 damage on average at level 11 when you get your third ray, but each of those is subject to SR and Fire Resistance. This is so far inferior to a Wraithstrike full attack that I simply can't understand your comparison. You could Twin it, then Quicken another one, and you'd still do less with the Scorching Rays, even without accounting for Fire Resistance and SR.

As to your assertion that Wraithstrike starts to level out at higher levels, since the one time I used it (and a good deal of my playtesting) was at a higher level, I can most definitely assure you that it only gets worse and worse.

 

[Mort]

As it becomes a problem, I strongly suspect you will find it starts to level out. Just watch.
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Huh? the ENTIRE problem with wraithstrike is it gets better and better the higher level you go. Look at the high CR monsters in the monster manual. As a whole - big AC's - tiny touch AC's, and that's where wraithstrike exells. As you get higher level the damage only gets bigger.

I'm curious, do you have experience with wraithstrike at high levels? Please share.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Huh, your arguments about the Warlock are making no sense. Let me get this straight:

No, it isn't. Not even close. Almost nobody thinks there is consensus on warlock's eldritch blast being an auto-hit in the overwhelming majority of characters out there. If you think some perfect combo makes it an auto-hit, that doesn't mean it's an auto-hit abilty, it just means you can create a power combo to make it more powerful (which you can do for just about anything).

When the warlock (and to be clear, a Warlock who is trying to be good with Eldritch Blasts, not a Warlock who specialises in other invocations and has 10 Dex or something) shoots an Eldritch Blast, it is expected to hit on the overwhelming majority of cases. Please point me to someone other than you who doesn't agree with this if you don't agree, or explain why not with examples.

Warlock can multiclass just like the wizard or sorceror. Compare apples to apples.

Huh? I don't understand why you would possibly bring that up. A Warlock that takes levels in Fighter for the BAB so they hit with the Eldritch Blast is being supremely idiotic because they lose out on Eldritch Blast damage by doing so at a rate of 2d6 damage for every +1 BAB. If you'd like to suggest that I'm somehow robbing the Warlock of its chance to shine by suggesting that it wouldn't multiclass into Fighter for the attack bonus boost, I think you're missing the point. Sure, a Warlock can multiclass, but the Warlock doesn't want to.

It's stronger than most weapons that a gish would have, in play.

Huh? No it isn't. I'm trying to understand your reasoning here. I don't want to ascribe motives for such a statement, but unless you forgot that Eldritch Blast is only one hit, I don't see how you could possibly think that an Eldritch Blast will do more than a full attack that hits with all the attacks. In fact, your statement is provably false if you compare the damage on Eldritch Blast to the damage on a Power Attack Greatsword full attack at any level (in fact, it is lower than the damage of a single Greatsword attack at full Power Attack at any level).

Not really. We are talking about a relatively small increase. And increase which is almost porportional to the BAB decrease you experience by doing this trick, and still having enough of these spells to make it a tactic as opposed to a couple of times a day trick.

I think you haven't looked carefully enough at the monsters, then. The increase for a large number of them is simply huge. Seriously, take a look. You will be surprised.

In play, with experience, a LOT of stuff depends on things that wraithstrike doesn't help with. It might be a dodge bonus, it might be a size bonus, it might be a spell, it might be an ability, it might be movement to somewhere else (full cover, or teleporting, or flight, or burrow, etc...), whatever. But in practice, armor and natural armor is not really as all-critical as you make it out to be. Particularly at high levels, which is when wraithstrike is "supposed" to be really useful.

Dodge bonuses are few and far between (you may mean Dex bonus--that's the main source of AC that avoids Wraithstrike, that and deflection, possibly from a Ring of Protection or its ilk). Size bonus is negligible if you negate the rest--it is almost certainly no more than +2 (very very few things that matter are Diminutive or smaller). Moving away is a bit of a cop out option--that suggests that the only way to stop the Wraithstrike PC is to constantly flee, every round if necessary, to prevent a full attack. And at high levels, even this chicken strategy can be avoided with abilities that add Pounce, etc.

Frankly, despite your calls to everyone else that they need to play with Wraithstrike more at high levels, it is clear that you are the one who has not played with it at high levels based on some of the comments you make (and you never claimed you did, I know, so it isn't any dishonesty on your part, more of a pot calling the kettle black thing), or if you did, you didn't have anyone using it on a Power Attacking gish.

 

[Mystery Man]

Well of course wraithstrike is overpowered if you allow it to be persisted. Persistant spell, particularly with divine metamagic, IS the most overpowered combo that is typically allowed in games!

If your conclusions are based on an epxerience involving this spell persisted, then you have not given the spell a fair chance.

Yeah I have. Even without it, it's ludicrously overpowered. Ludicrous I tell you!

 

[Thurbane]

Could you balance out the spell by saying that the weapon is basicallly immaterial, you don't get any Strength or Power Attack bonuses to damage?

 

[two]

3.0 haste

This reminds me - a lot - of the old 3.0 haste discussions that raged.

One excellent way to get to the root of it is this... (thinking about haste now):

If 3.0 haste were stripped from 3.0 entirely - never existed - and then suddenly a player came to you with 3.0 haste and asked if it was a reasonable 3rd level spell, what would your line of logic be?

3.0 haste: no action to cast (as you immediately get another partial)
3.0 haste: allows 2 spells/round or partial charge/full attack for the fighters

To try to judge an appropriate spell level, what does it take to get 2 spells off in a round. Quicken, bump up 4 levels, or ... contingency... time stop... various other high level combos.

Yet you cast 3.0 haste and can suddenly cast 2 spells a round with no penalty? (one is not at +4 spell levels or anything).

And it lasts X level rounds? Plus has other effects (partial charge + full attack was always gross for melee guys).

As a GM you would laugh, and call it a level 8 or 9 spell. Honestly, if 3.0 haste never existed, then was brought in as a level 9 spell, it would STILL be taken fairly regularly by high level casters. It compares well to time stop: time stop lets you do it in one round, while haste of course spreads out the pain over X rounds. Or, haste, THEN time stop... ha ha.

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So do the same with Wraithstrike. Act like it never existed. Have a player offer it as a 2nd level spell. As a GM, do you laugh him out of the room?

You do.

Comparing to Deep Impact (the best parallel) gives a spell level of 4-5 for a single attack; for full attacks... what... 7-8 level? As an immediate action + full attacks...that's ridiculous.

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3.0 haste was "slap me in the face" way too powerful, yet some people argued it was ok in "their campaigns." That's not what we are talking about. Overall, it was a very poor spell for the game as a whole. It was used far too much, and it was much too good for any caster not to select.

I feel the same about Wraithstrike. So trivially easy to abuse and maximize, and the insta-cast feature is absurd.

Plus, there is NO way to avoid TPK vs. dragons at this point. If the dragons are wise and smart - and they are - they will be using Wraithstrike all the time. With full power attack. I mean, really, every round they can. They will absolutely kill any PC with 2-3 hits, and they WILL hit. Why would a DRAGON not always cast this spell? What, he's waiting for the other 3-4 adventuring parties to come attack him?

Why would a PC NOT cast 3.0 haste? There were times...but overall, combats always featured haste. Why would a melee PC or monster that COULD cast Wraithstrike (or have it in an item) not use it as often as possible? No downside. They would.

Makes for a very binary game.

 

[Votan]

Let us consider some High CR critters and their armor classes.

1) Great Wyrm Red Dragon: 41 (-8 size, +39 natural), touch 2, flat-footed 41

2) Balor Demon: 35 (-1 size, +7 Dex, +19 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 28

3) Iron Golem: 30 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +22 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 30

4) Colossal Monstrous Spider: 22 (-8 size, +2 Dex, +18 natural), touch 4, flat-footed 20

5) Elder Air Elemental: 27 (-2 size, +11 Dex, +8 natural), touch 19, flat-footed 16

6) Titan: 38 (-2 size, +19 natural, +11 +4 half-plate armor), touch 8, flat-footed 38

7) Dread Wraith: 25 (-1 size, +9 Dex, +7 deflection), touch 25, flat-footed 16

So of seven high CR encounters (ranging from 11 to 20+), only one isn't affected by wratihstrike. The best 2 ACs (41 and 38) become 2 and 8 with wraithstrike.

The average "to hit" bonus provided by this spell against this list of challenges is: +19!

It's not a systematic sample of the MM critters but there is a pretty strong pattern here. It is also interesting that the cases with weaker benefit often had lower overall AC (Dread Wraith and Air Elemental).

This is much better than magic swords, for example, even if you split the damage. Sure, occasionally it fails. But it is very, very good if the character is able to get the spell in a pure fighter build (extra spell for a Ranger, for example, or imagine a cleric) and even worse persisted.

What I think balances it for a pure mage is that they are not focused on attack (doing little damage with strikes) and it takes feats to get very powerful (Arcane Strike, Power Attack or Combat Expertise, Extra Spell, Persistent Spell).

But it does a lot for the Fighter/Mage.