Is Wraithstrike the wrong level?

[Piratecat]

Huh, your arguments about the Warlock are making no sense...
...Please point me to someone other than you who doesn't agree with this if you don't agree, or explain why not with examples...
...Huh? I don't understand why you would possibly bring that up.
...I don't want to ascribe motives for such a statement, but unless you forgot...
...I think you haven't looked carefully enough at the monsters, then.
...Frankly, despite your calls to everyone else that they need to play with Wraithstrike more at high levels, it is clear that you are the one who has not played with it at high levels...

Let's play a game! The name of the contest is "don't rudely challenge other posters or make arguments personal." The winner gets everyone's appreciation, and the loser gets a ticked off moderator.

Seriously, gang. There's no way for the subject of that post to read it and not get defensive and even more snarky.* It's easy to challenge ideas without taking digs at the people behind them. I'd appreciate it if everyone would work harder on that.

* Mistwell, prove me wrong - when you read it, don't get defensive and even more snarky!

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

A few points here:

1. Arcane strike works on weapons, not spells. Using arcane strike to power an ordinary touch attack is either the result of a very unusual tactical situation or a player who wants to waste their spells.

2. Vampiric touch and nearly all other touch spells pale in comparison to the amount of damage an arcane striking power attacker will dish out. A near autohit on 35 damage at 20th level? (Subject to spell resistance, etc) Not such a big deal. A near autohit on 200+ damage at 16th level? That's a big deal. (Figure of 400 arrived at by: +4 holy flaming greatsword, 18 strength, Power Attack for 13=53.5 average damage per hit x3 attacks+haste attack). Stack on Arcane Strike and fires of purity for another 35 damage per hit bringing the total to about 340 points of damage. That's a much bigger deal than vampiric touch or any touch attack spell short of 3.0 harm. (Heck, since there's no save, it's probably a bigger deal than 3.0 harm).

3. If you're taking invisibility or blink as the comparison point, neither one will make anything other than a touch attack an auto-hit.
A. Touch attacks are pretty much autohits anyway at high level except in unusual circumstances
B. Touch spells don't do nearly as much damage.
C. The attack bonus benefit that they provide to touch attacks is generally small to moderate--on the order of 0-5 points with 1 or 2 points of bonus being normal. On the other hand, the attack bonus provided by wraithstrike is usually in the neighborhood of +18.

Coulding scorching ray and invisibility or blink do you just as well however? Vampiric Touch? Arcane strike plus invisibility makes lots of melee touch attack spells very powerful, but nobody complains about those spells or makes outrageous exagerations like "should be a ninth level spell instead of a second level spell"!

 

[BeholderBurger]

I have a severe problem with wraithstrike. I am running Red hand of Doom and basically a 9th level Sorcerer took out a CR10 red dragon without breaking a sweat due to it. He polymorphed into a hag, cast fly met it in hand to hand and wraithstriked twice. With such a low Touch AC (even with Shield and mage armour) the dragon was easy to hit with all attacks and with rend devestated the dragon. This was with virtually no intervention from the party or their cohorts.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Let's play a game! The name of the contest is "don't rudely challenge other posters or make arguments personal." The winner gets everyone's appreciation, and the loser gets a ticked off moderator.

Seriously, gang. There's no way for the subject of that post to read it and not get defensive and even more snarky.* It's easy to challenge ideas without taking digs at the people behind them. I'd appreciate it if everyone would work harder on that.

* Mistwell, prove me wrong - when you read it, don't get defensive and even more snarky!

My apologies--I was trying very hard to try to be polite and focus on the points here, even though the arguments didn't make sense to me, but I obviously failed handily. My failure means I should probably stop posting in this thread then, but everyone else has it well in hand, so I'm probably not needed anyways.

 

[Votan]

I have a severe problem with wraithstrike. I am running Red hand of Doom and basically a 9th level Sorcerer took out a CR10 red dragon without breaking a sweat due to it. He polymorphed into a hag, cast fly met it in hand to hand and wraithstriked twice. With such a low Touch AC (even with Shield and mage armour) the dragon was easy to hit with all attacks and with rend devestated the dragon. This was with virtually no intervention from the party or their cohorts.

This is a good example, actually. I had forgotten about Polymorph but the syngergy with Polymorph and Wraithstrike is high.

I think I am convinced that the spell should affect a single attack. It could stay a swift action. At the level it is obtained (3rd for wizards, 4th for Sorcerers) it should do what it is intended to do (allow these classes to land a melee attack in a desperate situation) and applies to all attacks from these classes until 11th level (1st iterative attack for these classes). The purpose of the spell is preserved.

But then it would not be easy to combine with a series of iterative attacks (see Elder Basilisk's example for a Fighter/mage) or Polymorphing into a form with many attacks (as above). It would also make me less worried about migration to other spell lists (instead, i would encourage adding this version of wrathstrike to the Paladin and Ranger -- the latter getting a ranged version).

How to do this is less obvious.

1] If it says a swift action and the spell text stays the same then it can be used to help do amazing things with charges. But that is probably not gamebreaking.

2] If it costs a move action to cast then a 6th level version can be Quickened; this is okay although rods of quicken could be an issue. But 6th level spells are strong and I am not as worried about the fighter/mage doing something amazing with a combination of spending many feats and burning pinnacle spell slots. It might make the Bladesinger class fairly appealing, however, but (again) that is hardly upsetting to me (if a plyer wants to cripple himself with levels of Bladesinger for flavor, it is cool that he gets a decent uptick as a result).

 

[wildstarsreach]

This is a good example, actually. I had forgotten about Polymorph but the syngergy with Polymorph and Wraithstrike is high.

I think I am convinced that the spell should affect a single attack. It could stay a swift action. At the level it is obtained (3rd for wizards, 4th for Sorcerers) it should do what it is intended to do (allow these classes to land a melee attack in a desperate situation) and applies to all attacks from these classes until 11th level (1st iterative attack for these classes). The purpose of the spell is preserved.

But then it would not be easy to combine with a series of iterative attacks (see Elder Basilisk's example for a Fighter/mage) or Polymorphing into a form with many attacks (as above). It would also make me less worried about migration to other spell lists (instead, i would encourage adding this version of wrathstrike to the Paladin and Ranger -- the latter getting a ranged version).

How to do this is less obvious.

1] If it says a swift action and the spell text stays the same then it can be used to help do amazing things with charges. But that is probably not gamebreaking.

2] If it costs a move action to cast then a 6th level version can be Quickened; this is okay although rods of quicken could be an issue. But 6th level spells are strong and I am not as worried about the fighter/mage doing something amazing with a combination of spending many feats and burning pinnacle spell slots. It might make the Bladesinger class fairly appealing, however, but (again) that is hardly upsetting to me (if a plyer wants to cripple himself with levels of Bladesinger for flavor, it is cool that he gets a decent uptick as a result).

What am I? Chopped liver. Post #70 was a similar and I started this thread.....

 

[ainbimagh]

What am I? Chopped liver. Post #70 was a similar and I started this thread.....

SILENCE LIVER BOY!

 

[Blightersbane]

Lets get this striaght haste, arcane strike, persistant spell, combined with wraithstrike is great? Thats a lot to get good at melee for a brief while. The same multiclassed guy would have ? hit points at 14th level 7d10 + 7d4 = a dead melee combatant at this level you had better pray you win initiative.

Blightersbane

 

[ainbimagh]

The problem with wraithstrike is not that it is overpowered, or the wrong level. The problem with wraithstrike is that its more easily broken by young inexperienced players, who dont quite understand the consequence or reprecusions (sp?) of "breaking" the game. So it is looked down upon with a little disdain. The char-op board shows MANY other combos which are infiniately more powerful to break, they just take more work. I have no problem with wraithstrike as a spell, but just as everything use of anything has consequences, and those consequences being that my NPCs/Monsters will respond.

...remember!

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

 

[Infiniti2000]

Lets get this striaght haste, arcane strike, persistant spell, combined with wraithstrike is great? Thats a lot to get good at melee for a brief while.

What about Persistent Spell is brief?