Issue with Bards that cast spells

[jasin]

Bards have spells because of their tendency to gather bits and pieces of knowledge all over the place-- they're dabblers.

And they just all happen to dabble in illusion/enchantment/divination? If bardic magic is just picking up bits and pieces, how come no bard picks up magic missile, or anything else not on the very very focused bard list?

Bardic magic as it is now stems much more from their role as a performer, than their (questionable...) role as a jack-of-all-trades.

My DM allowed my bard to pick spells from any list whatsoever, for a more of a jack-of-all-trades/dabbler effect. No problems so far, but I think I'd only allow one spell per spell level poached from other lists. Keeps the flavour of the bard's spell list more, but still allows "well, I happened to learn this from a druid once..." tricks.

 

[pdkoning]

The magical abilities of the bard are subtle, and that is the way it should be. The magic should support high-charisma characters. And they should not be a 'second' wizard or cleric.

I have no problem with spell-casting bards, although the Skald listed by S'mon looks very interesting.

 

[S'mon]

S'mon, I would be all over your Skald class. With D10 HP, full bab, good will saves, martial weapons, 6 skill points, Diplomacy Bluff and Sense motive as class skills, it's like a dream come true! But the rage bit is where it gets a little over the top to me. Maybe I'm the only one who found the bard spells too situational to be worth all that trade off. But it's neat, nonetheless.

I was told it was too weak on House Rules, before I added Rage and changed good Ref to good Fort. I don't think it's stronger than the 3.5 Ranger anyway - Rage I always find is a mixed blessing, PCs who Rage routinely die very fast IMCs. Anyway I'm sick of wimpy bards, I wanted something that stacks up well vs Fighter, Ranger, Paladin & Barbarian.

Edit: I think the Bard RAW is a pretty weak class, but that's not my problem with it.

 

[fuindordm]

I have less problems with conceptualizing a bard that casts spells than I do a ranger that casts spells, a non-spontaniously casting divine caster, monks learning to talk with everything, the system of having equivalent spells of equivalent power across the world, wizards as magical copying machines, the difference between knowledge (arcana) and spellcraft checks, the way pre-requisites for creating magic items works, the logic behind the breakdown of perform skills in 3.5 given the relative importance of the skill, or the implications of the summon monster spell.

I hear ya. Yes, I too find a spellcasting bard pretty easy to swallow to in comparison to all these. I always think of a bard's spells as expressions of their music, so subtle effects (buffs, enchantment, healing, abjurations) seem highly appropriate, while illusions and a few other spells are much less so. If I had my druthers, I'd pare down their spell list significantly and give them a completely different spellcasting method, for example no components other than music (or perhaps singing + various instruments as foci), and you have to play for 1 full round per spell level to acheive the effect.

When I think bard I think of Orpheus, the nordic runemasters and skalds, the Finnish magicians... there's a rich tradition of characters that work their magic through song, poetry, and/or music. The second edition bard, on the other hand, gave me a stomachache.

But for a mundane bard... it's a niche already half-filled by the rogue and aristocrat. I think a d10 HD is a little much for a class whose skills areas are supposed to be knowledge and social skills, and without spells to worry about getting some of the fighter in there is better handled by multiclassing. Then you could have the raging bard by adding a bit of brbarian, the soldier-skald by adding a bit of fighter, etc.

I would do d8 HD, medium BAB, and instead of the rogue special abilities (uncanny dodge, evasion, sneak attack) give them bardic music (for sneak attack), bardic lore (for uncanny dodge), allow any bard or rogue skill as a class skill. And probably throw in a handful of bonus feats as you go up in levels, say 4 or 5.

Ben

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

My only gripe is they should have been prepared casters like wizards, not spontaneous like sorcerors.

 

[der_kluge]

Bards have spells because of their tendency to gather bits and pieces of knowledge all over the place-- they're dabblers.

If this were true, they'd be INT based casters, and they would have access to any spell they wanted.

I agree with Rodrigo. Bards as charisma-based casters make no sense at all.

 

[iwatt]

If I had my druthers, I'd pare down their spell list significantly and give them a completely different spellcasting method, for example no components other than music (or perhaps singing + various instruments as foci), and you have to play for 1 full round per spell level to acheive the effect.

I hear you. personally I don't have much issue with their spell list, but I like your idea for limiting tactical spellcasting. I guess what I'm lookng for is that bards don cast spells, they're just good at using their "music" for other purposes besides those expressed in Bardic Music.

I'd use something similar for Ranger spells, but they'd ahve to use components (herbs) and the same spellcasting time cost. They're not actually casting spells, I'd just be using the spell mechanic to illustrate their ability to use nature lore to their advantage.

I like the images it provides.

 

[Halcyon]

A while back in one of the Books of Eldritch Might (the second I believe), Monte Cook designed an alternate bard that can still cast spells but all of the spells are based on music and are not on any other class' spell lists. vs the Core bard I really liked how unique his take made the bard, if having a bard with magic is your thing.

 

[Estlor]

Semi-Radical idea....

What if, instead of spells, bards had Incantations like a warlock, getting fewer but being able to use them as many times as they wanted throughout the day. Of course, you'd have to modify their spell list a bit, because I'm thinking a cure X wounds incantation would get out of hand...

 

[Remathilis]

My idea (no, I haven't done it.)

Instead of spells, Pool all of the bard-like class abilities from the bard, evangelist, warchanter, dirgesinger, seeker of the song, virtuoso, stormsinger, dragonsong lyricist, etc + all the bardic feats and make them all generic class abilities to the bard. Now, a bard begins with 2 bard songs and gains a new song ever level (other level?). He still must meet the perform minimum.

It would probably require alot of tinkering, but its possible...