It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.

teitan

Legend
To win me back to D&D completely they would need to go back to their marketing from 5e’s earliest couple years and largely the policies and I don’t mean races and the like. The slow roll out, careful releases, not reprinting iterative adjustments across books for small tweaks to things. Keeping the game in the hands of the DM and the players by keeping optional rules optional.
 

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I'd argue people should have learned a lesson from this experience; it's not healthy for 1 system to dominate the industry like this. Branch out, try new stuff. I'm not boycotting WotC since they backed down, but my table will still be switching to PF2e for our next campaign and we'll likely try a different system and genre after that. Maybe we give 1D&D a try down the road, we'll see.

While I would personally like to see people playing more systems (and I would benefit from people playing more systems), I think if people want 1 system that is commonly understood by everyone, that is fair. The problem is that system was always under the control of one company (a very big company). If we truly want one system and open gaming we really need to consider if it ought to rely entirely on the whims of Hasbro (or of Paizo). I do share your hope that people will branch out after this, but I also hope that if we continue to have one system as the core, that we manage that in a way that is more sustainable, less subject to corporate greed.
 

Dausuul

Legend
Yes, forgiveness is healthy.

I've known a few of victims of abuse. Holding a grudge only hurt them, even when they where at a distance of years apart. You can both forgive and move on.
There is a difference between letting go of a grudge, and forgiveness. Letting go of the grudge just means you don't waste any more emotional energy on the person. It doesn't mean you change your opinion of them.

As for me, I'm in the "Don't anthropomorphize the giant corporation" camp. WotC is an accounting and legal fiction, a bookkeeping device. It can't be forgiven because it can't do anything -- people who work there do things. There were some people at Wizards who tried to do a bad thing. There were some other people who stepped in to do a good thing. I was mad at the first group and I'm immensely happy with the second group.

When it looked like the first group was in charge, I canceled my DDB subscription, bought some 3PP books, and planned to boycott Wizards. The goal was to tarnish that first group's reputation and reduce their influence within Wizards, and maybe someday get their decision changed. (Also to give 3PPs some love.) I was expecting this to take years and a failed 1D&D release, if it happened at all. Instead it happened within a month.

Now the second group seems to be in charge -- however temporarily, and maybe only for this one thing -- and I want to show my support and strengthen their hand. So I resubscribed and I'm gonna go see the D&D movie and buy some Magic cards when the new set comes out.

I'm not holding a grudge against the first group. I'm not going to waste emotional energy grinding my teeth and wishing them ill. That doesn't mean I've forgiven them, though. I don't need them to be publicly humiliated or fired, but if their boss asked me, "Should I fire these people?" the answer would be a firm yes. And I hope they are kept well away from making any more decisions about D&D.
 
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Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
That does not really sound like forgiving.
That's because people these days feel like Forgiveness is equal to granting carte blanche. To wiping the slate clean. People often combine Forgive and Forget into a single concept rather than keeping them separate.

Forgiveness is giving up anger and resentment. Letting those harsh feelings subside. It has nothing to do with the regaining of trust, or position, or comfort. Those things have been lost.

But I'm not longer angry. No longer resentful.
 

ThorinTeague

Creative/Father/Professor
I agree that forgiveness is sorely lacking in modern life and more forgivens should be granted. That said:

1, you can forgive from a distance.
2. you can forgive and also move on.
3. forgetting is not a requirement of forgiveness.
4. you forgive people, not corporations. your emotions are misplaced and you are inviting further pain down the road.
 

That's because people these days feel like Forgiveness is equal to granting carte blanche. To wiping the slate clean. People often combine Forgive and Forget into a single concept rather than keeping them separate.

Forgiveness is giving up anger and resentment. Letting those harsh feelings subside. It has nothing to do with the regaining of trust, or position, or comfort. Those things have been lost.

But I'm not longer angry. No longer resentful.

I know the difference, thank you. Going around telling everyone not to trust seems not forgiving to me. Sounds like beholding a grudge. But maybe I misinterpreted it.
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
I know the difference, thank you. Going around telling everyone not to trust seems not forgiving to me. Sounds like beholding a grudge. But maybe I misinterpreted it.
It seems like you're dictating my emotional state from an external perspective after I've expressed and clarified my emotional state.

I think that may be where the interpretation goes astray.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
You forgive people. PEOPLE need your forgiveness.

Corporations. Brands. Conglomerates. These are not people. They do not need your forgiveness. Go buy their product if you're happy with them. Don't if you're not.

If someone does not want to buy the product, they are under no obligation to do so, and literally any reason is valid. Not buying the product doesn't turn someone into a spiteful person. If it's bad vibes, it's bad vibes, it's fine.
DING! You are correct, sir!

Companies are inanimate objects. They do not need forgiveness, they do not need blame, they do not need a high five, they do not need your trust.

Deal with the people inside the company. They are the ones who can do things to you and for whom you can talk to, argue with, forgive or blame.
 

mellored

Hero
Forgive (personal): I will not waste my energy being angry, especially when I can waste it playing

Forgive (corporate): i will not boycott the movie or the one dnd over OGL*
*they still need to be good products though

Don't trust: I won't make content for 1dnd unless it says "irrevocable"*
*creative commons has this.
 

ECMO3

Hero
We are talking about WOTC like it is a monolithic living being. WOTC does not have feelings, it can not use logic, it as an entity that doesn't even really make statements. It is people doing those things, and it includes both good and bad people and to me those good people are part of our community and need our support. Those good people at WOTC arguably saved the game itself and the game is still as fun to play as it was a month ago.

The way WOTC went about pushing the OGL 1.1 was underhanded, the desire to do it in the first place represented a break in trust and a disregard for promises made. Those people caused a lot of stress and we rightly feel betrayed. It got worse as the first "apology" was not an apology at all and was gaslighting, the second apology no one trusted/believed because of the first. It is people doing these things. Bad people. I don't factually know who they are, but many here have speculated.

But Kyle Brink said he would listen to us, he said he would consider our feedback, while we were saying "they are not even going to read the feedback" and talking about their "real motivation" (which probably was the real motivation of some). At the end of the day though "WOTC" as an organization, with Kyle acting as "the face" did exactly what Kyle said they would do. To me that matters.

Sorry if I stirred up so much controversy, and certainly people need to make their own decisions. For me at the end of the day WOTC did not do anything to OGL 1.0a and they did deliver on what was promised.
 

Reynard

Legend
The more I think about it, the more offensive the idea is that we need to "get back on board."

No. Hell no. they broke trust in a way that is unforgettable, even if you might consider it forgivable, and I absolutely do not have to get "on board" and give them money for canceling their stupid, evil plan.
 

Jadeite

Open Gaming Enthusiast
For me at the end of the day WOTC did not do anything to OGL 1.0a and they did deliver on what was promised.
Sadly, that's not the case. They stated that they had the authority to deauthorize it. Yesterday they stated that they won't, not that they can't. Putting the 5.1 SRD under CC alleviated some of those fears, but they could still try, theoretically, to stop 3.5 reliant material from being published.
They eroded people's faith in the OGL. And in WotC.
That's why I'm looking forward to the ORC.
 



DDB post from Kyle Brink today:

1. Not revoking 1.0a

2. Releasing entire 5E SRD on creative commons

"This Creative Commons license makes the content freely available for any use. We don't control that license and cannot alter or revoke it. It's open and irrevocable in a way that doesn't require you to take our word for it. And its openness means there's no need for a VTT policy. Placing the SRD under a Creative Commons license is a one-way door. There's no going back."

This is what we wanted and it represents a clear reversal from WOTC along with a mea culpa. Putting the SRD under CC is one heck of a show of good faith. I asked for that in the survey, as presumably others did, but I am surprised they did it.

Going forward IMO WOTC can do what they want with ONE. Obviously I would like that to be open as well, but at the end of the day it is up to them and putting a new game under a closed license does not represent the same sort of break in trust that putting 5E under it would have been.
I appreciate your thoughts but this is the wrong crowd. Many people don’t know how to not be angry. They hate WoTC for making money. They hate them for wanting to make more money. They hate them for making products that don’t appeal to them. The list is endless.

For me no forgiveness is necessary. I never trusted WoTC. I didn’t have to. We have a business relationship. When they make something I like, and I can afford it, I may buy it.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
I've known a few of victims of abuse. Holding a grudge only hurt them, even when they where at a distance of years apart. You can both forgive and move on.

So, this isn't an appropriate analogy. Personal abuse, and "the company started on a business change I didn't like" are NOT THE SAME. What happened with WotC is NOT like when your spouse beats you up. It is NOT like your parents constantly degrading you. It is NOT like someone trying to have sexual relations with you when you don't want them.

The analogy is an offense to abuse survivors, please don't make it.

In addition - the route to a healthy future is different for each abuse survivor. Please do not prescribe one mode (forgiveness) for all.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
As someone upthread said - I don't have a personal relationship with WotC. I have a consumer relationship with them.

And WotC hasn't been my sole gaming provider since the 80s. I have never been "on board" as a purist.

They considered a business move I thought was a bad idea, unfair, and ethically dicey. They were convinced not to take it. So, I have no issue continuing my consumer relationship. When I like what they're producing, I'll buy it, when not, I won't.
 

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