It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.

Why don't you let people decide if they want to do that for themselves? What do all the people trying to convince everyone to forgive and buy a giant company's products get out of it??

I think generally we are better off not pressuring other people to agree with us on everything, even issues like this one. I have strong views on WOTC at the moment but I very much believe people should be able to make up their own minds on these issues. I think that is important for most issues in the hobby: people want to be able to think for themselves
 

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Matt Thomason

Adventurer
I think generally we are better off not pressuring other people to agree with us on everything, even issues like this one. I have strong views on WOTC at the moment but I very much believe people should be able to make up their own minds on these issues. I think that is important for most issues in the hobby: people want to be able to think for themselves
Yup. The thing that people aren't understanding is that we do not all want the same thing here.

The train is not going to the destination all of us wish to reach.

Those who wish to reach that destination are best served getting back onboard the train.
Those who want a destination in another direction are best served getting onto a different train that's actually heading that way instead.

And that's absolutely fine, it's natural for people to want different things. Don't mourn it, celebrate it ;)
 


The more I think about it, the more offensive the idea is that we need to "get back on board."

No. Hell no. they broke trust in a way that is unforgettable, even if you might consider it forgivable, and I absolutely do not have to get "on board" and give them money for canceling their stupid, evil plan.

Unforgettable. Maybe. Unforgivable? Hell no.
You don't have to go on board again. If it offends you, you might consider taking a step backwards. Noone wants to offend you.
 

Clint_L

Hero
We are talking about WOTC like it is a monolithic living being. WOTC does not have feelings, it can not use logic, it as an entity that doesn't even really make statements. It is people doing those things, and it includes both good and bad people and to me those good people are part of our community and need our support. Those good people at WOTC arguably saved the game itself and the game is still as fun to play as it was a month ago.
I would like to build on this.

I agree that anthropomorphizing a corporation as if you are in a relationship with a singular person doesn't seem very useful to me. There is nothing personal between me and WotC (or me and Hasbro, because the two are largely the same thing on this particular issue). I am very results oriented when it comes to what I think about companies - what am I getting out of them, and am I okay with how they are making it? For me, forgiveness implies some kind of emotional relationship that I can't have and don't want with a corporation.

I do want to push back a little on the "good and bad" people description, because people are complicated and I don't want to define someone in their entirety based on the stance they took on this issue.
 

Jaeger

That someone better

"It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard."​


GIF by Giphy QA


Saying that they will leave 1.0a alone is not the same as publicly acknowledging that it was irrevocable to begin with.

They say that they are giving their customers "what they want", while at the same time still engaging in sly wordsmithing...

Wotzi has proven that despite changes in executive management; that they cannot be trusted:
I, however, will not "get back on board". And I'm not coming from a place of malice with this, but a place of understanding.

This isn't the first time they've tried a similar stunt.
Their decision, while good, is still calculated on their part.
Their dishonesty while this was this was going on
eroded a lot of good will I had left.

My stance is based on understanding that it's an abusive relationship and I want to distance myself from being trapped in it again.

^This^

Wotzi only folded like a wet handkerchief when their gaslighting didn't work. And they are still calling their OGL 1.1 a draft...

You don't need official Wotzi product to play "D&D"!

I really hope that at least one of the 3pp that was going to make a 5e clone sticks to their guns, and gives 5e players options.

The hobby really needs to break the cycle at this point.
 



Bix and Box

Explorer
Forgive? Get back on board?!

WotC just tried to screw us.

Whereas the 3PPs offered us their own OGL. Paizo commited to fight WotC in court. Paizo announced Pathfinder sales that scared the death out of WotC.

Now you want us to forsake Paizo and the other 3PPs, after they just helped us win this battle?

That's gratitude for ya!
 


“It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.”

Is this some kind of sick joke, OP?

Nah, they’ve barely even begun to earn forgiveness. I can’t imagine the amount of stress that content creators had to deal with this past month because of Hasbro’s contractual whims. WotC are not heroes for putting out the fire that they started.
 

Clint_L

Hero
WotC are not heroes for putting out the fire that they started.
Hmmm...this is fun to consider. Are they heroes for:

A) releasing open content to begin with, which very few companies do with their IP?
B) releasing open content because they thought it would directly benefit themselves?
C) attempting to rescind their open licence in order to benefit themselves/their investors?
D) ultimately doing the right thing, and permanently sharing a large amount of their IP?

Ethically speaking, this is kind of an interesting question. A deontologist (classic example Immanuel Kant) would probably argue that they are not heroes, since ultimately ethics are tied to motives (though I suppose if you are a hardcore capitalist an argument could be made that maximizing return to investors is a categorical imperative, and so the motives were not immoral to begin with).

But a consequentialist (classic example John Stuart Mill) would definitely argue that they are heroes, because motives are irrelevant, all that matters are results. I think both a rules or an act-based consequentialist would agree that this is a outcome that increases the common good, so ultimately Hasbro/WotC deserve plaudits and we should now erect a corporate statue in the town square.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled episode of The Good Place.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Again with the talk of forgiveness. WotC and I are not in a personal relationship. It has always been and remains purely transactional. If they have something I want, I will buy it. If they don't, I won't. Mostly...they don't make stuff I want. But DnDBeyond is a huge convenience and integral to D&D Club, so they will keep getting my seven bucks a month for that, at a minimum.
Yeah, WotC isn't my friend, it isn't my spouse. It's a toy vendor. I'm glad the adults who understand the gaming scene won, but that doesn't create a social relationship between me and a toy vendor.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Hmmm...this is fun to consider. Are they heroes for:

A) releasing open content to begin with, which very few companies do with their IP?
B) releasing open content because they thought it would directly benefit themselves?
C) attempting to rescind their open licence in order to benefit themselves/their investors?
D) ultimately doing the right thing, and permanently sharing a large amount of their IP?

Ethically speaking, this is kind of an interesting question. A deontologist (classic example Immanuel Kant) would probably argue that they are not heroes, since ultimately ethics are tied to motives (though I suppose if you are a hardcore capitalist an argument could be made that maximizing return to investors is a categorical imperative, and so the motives were not immoral to begin with).

But a consequentialist (classic example John Stuart Mill) would definitely argue that they are heroes, because motives are irrelevant, all that matters are results. I think both a rules or an act-based consequentialist would agree that this is a outcome that increases the common good, so ultimately Hasbro/WotC deserve plaudits and we should now erect a corporate statue in the town square.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled episode of The Good Place.
They are nothing, because a corporation isn't a people.

I'm sure people inside the company are complex and all over the place.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
None of this stopped me from playing my weekly game. And there hasn't been another play test for me to examine.

So i don't know what else you expect me to get back on board with.

That said. "Thank WotC" is not the right word. "Forgive WotC" would be more accurate.

Holding a grudge isn't good for anyone's health.
This.

Also, I sure as heck am not going to stop working on my 5e-lite concept, supporting @Sacrosanct 's Basic 5e concept (bugbears of the Borderlands?), contributing to your community created dnd, or my adventures in Chevar port of my own game to a 5e chassis.

I'm still going to spend more money on 3pp this year, I'm still gonna support ORC and everything else that has come out of all this.

And I'm going to reinstate my DDB subscription. Because when someone corrects course and does right, and gives a solid apology for doing wrong, my belief is that it is appropriate to show appreciation for that. I don't care about any "no one gets a cookie for doing what they're supposed to do" mindset, i'm happy I don't work for or with anyone with that mindset because yes, you do give "cookies" for doing what they're supposed to do. Especially when doinig so is a course correction you asked them to make.

I hold no judgemnt forthose for whom this isn't enough, or who are going to require time to even consider forgiveness. This debacle hurt.

But I'm not going to hold a grudge, personally.
 

Jaeger

That someone better
A) releasing open content to begin with, which very few companies do with their IP?

This was done when D&D nerd Peter Adkinson ran the roost at WotC, pre Hasbro buyout.

No publicly traded corporation would ever do such a thing.

Believe me, if Hasbro-Wotzi would take it back if they thought they could get away with it.

Oh, that's right, They've tried that Twice now...

Fool me once; shame on you.

Fool me twice...
 

Saracenus

Always In School Gamer
I don't even have half the salt of lot of people here and I think that it is a bit presumptuous to tell everyone else to get back on board. That is a personal decision that each and everyone of us. Even WotC's offer of a one on one conversation with Executive Producer Kyle Brink sent to multiple D&D YouTubers, said:
"The past few weeks have hurt many people, but more than anything, it has disproportionately hurt all of you: the creators and life long fans of Dungeons & Dragons. There is hard work to be done by our team; that work starts now."

It is WotC's job to make amends (which they have started) and ask for forgiveness. It is our job to accept or reject it, that is on us as individuals.

This was a first step, so no, it is not all good. What is that saying? "A thousand yeses equals a single no." Rebuilding trust is going to take time and effort by all parties involved.

Let people process this in their own time.
 
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Clint_L

Hero
This was done when D&D nerd Peter Adkinson ran the roost at WotC, pre Hasbro buyout.

No publicly traded corporation would ever do such a thing.

Believe me, if Hasbro-Wotzi would take it back if they thought they could get away with it.

Oh, that's right, They've tried that Twice now...

Fool me once; shame on you.

Fool me twice...
They can't really fool you again though, because it's done. It's in the Creative Commons. They can't do take-backsies even if they want.
 

Novak

Explorer
I don't think any of us have a claim on anyone else's reaction to this news.

A week ago, I had resolved never to give WotC another dime of my money, unless something significant changed. Today, I find there has been a significant change in their stance, and I have moved to being comfortable giving them money in exchange for (say) 5e adventure paths, but not for electronic products like VTTs where I still do not trust their ultimate intentions.

But that is a personal reaction in two senses:

First, in that it is mine and mine alone. It needs no external validation, nor does it seek to persuade or cajole others into agreement.

Second, in that it is distinct from my philosophical reaction, which is that WotC has come too close to total market dominance for the good of the community and the hobby. Obviously, their dominance is not as complete as it may have seemed, and surely not as complete as they thought. But it was complete enough that they thought they could pull this off. As alarming as this has all been, though, I think some good will come of it through the ORC, through Kobolds' Project Black Flag, and through other developments not yet begun or announced. I look forward to having more meaningful choices than "OGL1.0a or CC 4.0-BY for 5e" a year from now.
 

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