Item Creation Caster Level

[ThirdWizard]

Still, 2x cost for virtually ZERO benefit is still a bad rule.

Not when you're a millionare, like you pointed out earlier. 500 gp when you're going to pull several thousands next battle? Sure its a worthless item, but 500 gp is just as worthless.

Let's calculate:

The caster level makes no difference in the belt's price, a 20th CL or a 200000000 CL will not change the price one bit. It doesn't cast darkvision. The caster level doesn't affect how darkvision works.

The first rule for pricing magial items is to check against other magial items to figure out around what the item should be priced, anyway. Don't worry so much about what the tables say unless all else fails.

 

[KarinsDad]

Karin's Dad:

Up until you talked about weapons, the rest of your comments are your opinion, and while I may find it extremely misguided, there really are no facts with which to debate. However, your comment about weapons and armour are just not correct. Like the Amulet of Natural Armour and the Amulet of Mighty Fists, magical Weapons and Armour *do* have a caster level requirement for each successive upgrade. Under caster level for weapons, it reads

"If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. "

Ah, the pre-requisites for armors and weapons was somewhat hidden (the lousy part about this is that the crafting rules are in multiple places in the DMG). The quote you have here does not state it, rather the real quotes for these are:

Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor.

Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon.

Since they are pre-requisites, the errata Caster Level rule (since it states that you must meet the pre-requisites) covers it.

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[dcollins]

The caster level makes no difference in the belt's price, a 20th CL or a 200000000 CL will not change the price one bit. It doesn't cast darkvision. The caster level doesn't affect how darkvision works.

Are you sure? Note that the rules don't actually say that, you just pulled it out of thin air. In fact, several pro-errata designers disagree with you. Here's what Sean K. Reynolds says on his website ( http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/magicitemcreation.htm ):

In such cases, the item can be priced at 1 level above its minimum caster level to reflect the very slight benefit for the increased caster level (resisting dispel magic), but the overall caster level of the item remains the same.

But of course it doesn't say that in the rules, either. It's purely ambiguous because the rules don't actually support variable caster levels for Wondrous Items (et. al.) anywhere. Which is exactly why it's best to stick with the DMG as published, and the most recent Rules of the Game series, that those caster levels are simply fixed.

 

[KarinsDad]

The caster level makes no difference in the belt's price, a 20th CL or a 200000000 CL will not change the price one bit. It doesn't cast darkvision. The caster level doesn't affect how darkvision works.

It doesn't HAVE to cast Darkvision for the spell to be the appropriate one when it flat out gives the user Darkvision.

I cannot help it if they stupidly used a different spell (Tongues which even so should have been CL 12 * SL 2 * 1.5 ten minutes per level spell * 2000 GP * 2 = 144000 GP Market Value, but they dropped it to 14900 GP, even using the minimum CL of 4 for a Bard would result in 48000 GP Market Value) in order to get a boatload of different abilities that do not even apply to that one spell, just in order to craft the item for a super cheap cost.

Plus, a change in Caster Level DOES affect the cost of a continuous or use activated item, regardless of whether it changes how the spell itself works. Just like it does for all items that have a set pre-requisite spell and a Caster Level (and even for items that do not have a set pre-requisite spell and merely a minimum caster level such as a +1 Longsword).

If you bump up the Caster Level by two or more, minimally you will make the item slightly more potent by making it more resistant to attacks regardless of how rare that is and regardless of whether other abilities of the spell is bumped up. Hence, an increase in cost.


But look at a Lantern of Revealing, the example item for Spell Effect Use-activated or continuous items. Example items should follow the item creation rules even if no other items do. It uses Invisibility Purge because that is what it does (i.e. it explicity grants Invisibility Purge just like a Belt of Dwarvenkind explicity grants Darkvision, but it does not actually cast the spell just like all use-activated or continuous items).

It’s cost according to the equation (and it is the example item for that equation) should be:

CL 5 * SL 3 * 2 one minute per level spell * 2000 GP * 2 = 120000 GP Market Value.

It's Market Value in the book is 30,000 GP. One quarter of the cost.

It doesn't cast Invisibility purge per se (like a wand) even though that is exactly what it does (with the exception that the item can be handed to another character or placed on the ground (PROs) and can be put out by certain spells like Gust of Wind (CON)). For all intents and purposes though, it is an Invisibilty Purge spell.


And, that particular equation would match the items in the book a LOT closer if it was 500 GP instead of 2000 GP and it used minimum Caster Level for the spell instead of Caster Level.

Some of the equations are just plain broken for certain types of items (Rings, Rods, Staves, and Wondrous) when you look at many of those items.

The first rule for pricing magial items is to check against other magial items to figure out around what the item should be priced, anyway. Don't worry so much about what the tables say unless all else fails.

Ah yes. WotC's "we totally screwed up some of the equations and are unwilling to fix them, so either use a similar item, or hack down the price yourself" rules.

What a joke those subjective caveat rules are.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Are you sure? Note that the rules don't actually say that, you just pulled it out of thin air.

Hmm... if you can find anywhere in the rules that give guidelines on changing the pricing of a longsword +1 or belt of giant strenght +4 based on caster level I will change my oppinion.

But of course it doesn't say that in the rules, either. It's purely ambiguous because the rules don't actually support variable caster levels for Wondrous Items (et. al.) anywhere. Which is exactly why it's best to stick with the DMG as published, and the most recent Rules of the Game series, that those caster levels are simply fixed.

That is a much more compelling argument, that caster level of items can't even be changed. Then it must always be set at the minimum possible caster level. Of course, then we wonder why Pearls of Power can possibly be CL 17, but I suppose that the errata might mean that the caster level is no longer listed in the DMG as 17...

Plus, a change in Caster Level DOES affect the cost of a continuous or use activated item, regardless of whether it changes how the spell itself works. Just like it does for all items that have a set pre-requisite spell and a Caster Level (and even for items that do not have a set pre-requisite spell and merely a minimum caster level such as a +1 Longsword).

I am very interested in what the rules say a longsword +1 with a CL of 20 costs.

Ah yes. WotC's "we totally screwed up some of the equations and are unwilling to fix them, so either use a similar item, or hack down the price yourself" rules.

What a joke those subjective caveat rules are.

The equasions simply don't always work. And, there's no reason to make complex equasions just to fit a few corner cases like true strike. It just isn't worth it. That's the rules, and you can argue that, say, elves shouldn't have low-light vision all day but it isn't going to change the fact that they do. If you think they should be changed, then house rule it. The way it works is that magical items are costed first and formost by their usefulness, not by what some table says.

 

[apesamongus]

Still, 2x cost for virtually ZERO benefit is still a bad rule.

Huh? What are you talking about?

 

[ThirdWizard]

Huh? What are you talking about?

EDIT: Ha, I was totally dumbfounded too apparently. Nothing to see here.

 

[KarinsDad]

I am very interested in what the rules say a longsword +1 with a CL of 20 costs.

Sorry, I mis-wrote there. I am currently on pain medication and sometimes mis-read or mis-write something. You can ignore that statement in the parenthesis.

Caster level is still applicable to Spell Effect items on the Estimating Magic Item table though.

The equasions simply don't always work. And, there's no reason to make complex equasions just to fit a few corner cases like true strike. It just isn't worth it. That's the rules, and you can argue that, say, elves shouldn't have low-light vision all day but it isn't going to change the fact that they do. If you think they should be changed, then house rule it. The way it works is that magical items are costed first and formost by their usefulness, not by what some table says.

Although it is possible to get the Command Word and Use-Activated table entires to correspond to the majority of items and that is something WotC has not done. They do have it close or accurate for other items.

Huh? What are you talking about?

Sorry, I was unclear there.

"Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item."

Example:

Command Word Headband of Tongues:

The creation cost is: Spell Level x Caster Level x 1,800 GP.

A bard crafts it and it costs 2 x 3 x 1800 GP or 10800 GP. It’s Market Value is 21600.

A Cleric crafts it and it costs 4 x 7 x 1800 GP or 50400 GP. The only advantage is that it has a CL of 7 instead of 3, but it costs 2 1/3 more for a Cleric to craft than the item even has Market Value.


Hence, this is a dumb creation rule. IMO.

 

[dcollins]

Hmm... if you can find anywhere in the rules that give guidelines on changing the pricing of a longsword +1 or belt of giant strenght +4 based on caster level I will change my oppinion.

I agree, there aren't any, that's my whole point. Items you can change caster levels on have rules of what the price looks like afterwards (scrolls/potions/wands, PHB "Feats"). Items you can't change caster levels on are lacking any such rules (you have to make up a house rule to handle it).

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Command Word Headband of Tongues:

The creation cost is: Spell Level x Caster Level x 1,800 GP.

A bard crafts it and it costs 2 x 3 x 1800 GP or 10800 GP. It’s Market Value is 21600.

A Cleric crafts it and it costs 4 x 7 x 1800 GP or 50400 GP. The only advantage is that it has a CL of 7 instead of 3, but it costs 2 1/3 more for a Cleric to craft than the item even has Market Value.

Note, however, that a Bard cannot cast the Toungues spell until 4th-level, so the minimum price is 2 * 4 * 1,800gp, or 14,400gp.

This command activated item lasts for 40 minutes.

A cleric can craft it instead, but as you say, for a cleric, it's a 4th-level spell. The minimum a cleric can make such an item for is 4 * 7 * 1,800gp, or 50,400gp.

This command activated item lasts for 70 minutes.

A wizard can craft it instead, and for him it's a 3rd-level spell. The minimum a wizard can make such an item for is 3 * 5 * 1,800go, or 27,000gp.

This command activated item lasts for 50 minutes.

Now, here's the real catch ...

A bard can make such an item that lasts for as long as the cleric's version does. For him, it costs 2 * 7 * 1,800gp, or 25,200gp.

However, any of the above listed guys can just hire a passing, 4th-level or better, appropriately trained bard, and have him provide the prerequisite spell. The minimum caster level, therefore, is 4th, and the bard just needs a couple gold per day to pay for the two weeks he'll be helping you, and then anyone can make the item at CL 4.