Item Creation Caster Level

[Jeff Wilder]

This is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Even if that were true, so is your post. Mine was, at least, tangential.

Not only can anyone put anything non-offensive in their sigs that they desire, I also do not see a sig for DCollins. So, maybe he just recently removed it

Or maybe you somehow haven't caught on to the fact that the forum software only displays one instance of a sig in a given thread-page, so you didn't look back at the third or fourth post, in which dcollins' sig is displayed.

but in either case, your point here is not a discussion of the rules and doesn't belong in the rules forum.

Again, take your own advice. At the very least, I'm pointing out that a signature directing people away from the Rules forum is incorrect.

If you ever have a problem with his sig, please send it directly to the moderators instead of posting it.

Absolutely, as soon as you show me your badge.

Wait ... you don't have a badge? Well, in that case, I guess I'll continue to respond to correct false information in a post, even without your permission.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Their creation costs (for crafting only one bag) range from 6300 GP to 10050 GP due to the material cost of casting Leomund's Secret Chest (5050 GP, the cost of which is not lost, but is still required up front).

Still required why?

"If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells required, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)"

You just need to prepare the spell. You don't need the 5000gp chest to craft a bag of holding.

Should an item be worth (Market Value) 3.5 times the cost when one character crafts it versus another character crafting it?

It isn't.

"Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item."

your point here is not a discussion of the rules and doesn't belong in the rules forum. If you ever have a problem with his sig, please send it directly to the moderators instead of posting it.

I fear I have to agree with KD on this one, Jeff. If you want to open a question about what belongs in sigs for public discussion, it belongs in Meta. If you want to request a moderatorial review of a particular sig, your best bet is to use the Report Post function - the moderators all check the Reported Posts forum regularly, and it's the easiest way to draw our attention to something so we can discuss it.

-Hyp.
(Moderator) <- My badge

 

[Rystil Arden]

Karin's Dad:

Up until you talked about weapons, the rest of your comments are your opinion, and while I may find it extremely misguided, there really are no facts with which to debate. However, your comment about weapons and armour are just not correct. Like the Amulet of Natural Armour and the Amulet of Mighty Fists, magical Weapons and Armour *do* have a caster level requirement for each successive upgrade. Under caster level for weapons, it reads

If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

If you want to open a question about what belongs in sigs for public discussion, it belongs in Meta. If you want to request a moderatorial review of a particular sig, your best bet is to use the Report Post function - the moderators all check the Reported Posts forum regularly, and it's the easiest way to draw our attention to something so we can discuss it.

Fair enough, but I don't particularly want to do either of those things. (Or I would've.) But I'll keep it in mind for if I ever do.

 

[Staffan]

For example, if lowering CL is allowed and a Dwarven Cleric with a Wisdom of 14 crafts a Belt of Dwarvenkind, it costs him (continuous or use activated item):

4 (SL) * 7 (CL) * 2000 GP * 1.5 (10 mins per level spell) = 84000 GP / 2 (market value) or 42000 GP (creation cost)

A Dwarven Bard with a Charisma of 14 crafts a Belt of Dwarvenkind and it costs him:

2 (SL) * 4 (CL) * 2000 GP * 1.5 (10 mins per level spell) = 24000 GP / 2 (market value) or 12000 GP (creation cost)

This is where you confuse an item having a spell as a prerequisite with an item that uses a spell. The formulas you quote are totally irrelevant to the cost of a belt of dwarvenkind. If it was an item that cast tongues on the wearer, or allowed the wearer to speak any language, they might have some use, but this is not that kind of item.

 

[Staffan]

My personal take for the most boneheaded (not corrected or errataed) magic item in the DMG is the Bag of Holding.

The versions range in Market Price from 2500 GP to 10000 GP.

Their creation costs (for crafting only one bag) range from 6300 GP to 10050 GP due to the material cost of casting Leomund's Secret Chest (5050 GP, the cost of which is not lost, but is still required up front). 6300 GP to craft an item that sells for 2500 GP. If you crafted and sold four of the Type I Bags of Holding, you still would not break even. Hmmm.

From the SRD (emphasis mine):
[bq]If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)[/bq]
You only need to add the cost of the components if the item directly mimics the spell. Bags of holding do not, so they do not have their creation cost increased by the component cost for Leomund's secret chest.

 

[Staffan]

Alright, so what's the minimum caster level for these feather tokens, if any?

9th, the minimum caster level of major creation.

that means that any 5th level caster (minimum level for the Craft feat) can create any weapon or armor that does not have an associated higher level spell pre-requisite. A 5th level caster can create a +5 Longsword according to this errata because the only pre-requisite for a +5 Longsword is to have the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat.

You are missing the part under "Creating Magic Weapons" where it says "Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met." There's a similar note under "Creating Magic Armor".

 

[KarinsDad]

Still required why?

"If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells required, nor are any XP costs inherent in a prerequisite spell incurred in the creation of the item. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item’s creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)"

You just need to prepare the spell. You don't need the 5000gp chest to craft a bag of holding.

Thanks for pointing that out.

What page in the DMG is it on?

I saw point #2 under Table 7-32 on page 284 which implied that this rule was for material components (i.e. "The cost is only for spells activated by the item that have material or xp components. Having a spell with a costly component as a prerequisite does not automatically incurr this cost. ") because I missed the point that the second sentence just said components and it refers to the column Material (not focuses).

Focuses are not a material, hence, the reason I thought the rule applied only for material components and not for focuses.

Plus, tmk, this rule did not exist in 3E.

It isn't.

"Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item."

Still, 2x cost for virtually ZERO benefit is still a bad rule.

 

[Nail]

<nods>

FWIW, I think *all* magic items should have a spell or spells as their base. Pearl of Power, Frost Greatsword +1, Bag of Holding, etc. This solves the enitre issue of caster level.

Want a Bag of Holding? Great. Develop a spell that would create such an effect, for 1 hour per level, say. ("This spell turns a normal bag into an extradimensional space for 1 hour per level....." <= Sounds like a 2nd or 3rd level Wiz spell, no?) Then craft an item, using the base formula spell level * caster level * 2000gp. Simple!

....and, most definately, House Rules. Sorry fer th' ramble.......

 

[KarinsDad]

This is where you confuse an item having a spell as a prerequisite with an item that uses a spell. The formulas you quote are totally irrelevant to the cost of a belt of dwarvenkind. If it was an item that cast tongues on the wearer, or allowed the wearer to speak any language, they might have some use, but this is not that kind of item.

Yes, but it DOES allow the user to use Darkvision.

This belt gives the wearer a +4 competence bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks as they relate to dealing with dwarves, a +2 competence bonus on similar checks when dealing with gnomes and halflings, and a –2 competence penalty on similar checks when dealing with anyone else. The wearer can understand, speak, and read Dwarven. If the wearer is not a dwarf, he gains 60-foot darkvision, dwarven stonecunning, a +2 enhancement bonus to Constitution, and a +2 resistance bonus on saves against poison, spells, or spell-like effects.

The Belt's abilities are dissimilar: Just because they are abilities a Dwarf might have does not make them similar. They follow a theme, but they are different abilities.

Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that do take up a space on a character’s body each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.

Let's calculate:

DarkVision - Use Activated or Continuous (second level Darkvision spell)
Spell level x caster level x 2,000 GP = 12,000 GP

+2 resistance bonus on saves against poison, spells, or spell-like effects ~= +2 to all saves item
Bonus squared x 1,000 gp = 4000 GP * 1.5 * 3 areas (Will, Fort, and Reflex) = 18000 GP

To be generous, let's multiply that cost by 50%, 75% because a Dwarf cannot use the bonus here and 67% because it doesn't cover all saves, just 80+% of them = 9000 GP.

+2 enhancement bonus to Constitution - Equivalent to an Amulet of Health
Bonus squared x 2,000 gp = 4000 GP * 1.5 * 75% (Dwarf cannot use) = 4500 GP

Dwarven Stone cunning - This is an ability which has no real corresponding spell. The closest thing we have to an ability is a feat. And the few feat items are priced fairly highly. But, let’s make it a first level 24 hour spell instead (even though first level 24 hour spells are rare, let's be generous here too).

Spell level x caster level x 2,000 GP = 2000 GP * 1.5 / 2 (24 hour spell) = 1500 GP

Speak Dwarven Language Skill - Unknown since languages do not have ranks, it cannot really be considered a competence bonus. But it is equivalent to a rank (i.e. +1 competence bonus) in a language, so:
Bonus squared x 100 gp = 100 GP * 1.5 = 150 GP

+4 competence bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks as they relate to dealing with dwarves, a +2 competence bonus on similar checks when dealing with gnomes and halflings, and a –2 competence penalty on similar checks when dealing with anyone else

Let's assume this one is a wash and isn’t worth much except it might be worth a LOT to a dwarf (turning him into a Dwarf among Dwarves) considering only dwarves can craft this item. But, let’s be generous and make it a zero cost. Remember, to interact with other non-small races NPCs, all the user has to do is take off the Belt. It is nowhere near curse level.

Note: I decreased the cost by 25% for any ability that adds a bonus (e.g. a save) because Dwarves cannot use that bonus, but did not decrease it for any full blown ability (like speaking, reading and writing Dwarven) because this item would not benefit anyone with that ability already, not just Dwarfs (remember, items like Rings of Evasion do not decrease the cost because most Rogues and Monks cannot use them for a full blown feat).

And, I did not throw in a masterwork item cost.

Total Creation Cost: 12000 + 18000 + 9000 + 4500 + 1500 + 150 = 45150 GP

Total Market Value: 90300 GP

The Market Value of the actual item is 14900 GP or about 1/6th of what the (being very generous) equations state it should be.

Now, how is a DM supposed to figure that out?

Answer: He cannot. It is total guesswork on how WotC calculated this stuff, but they sure as heck did not use their own equations.