Item Creation Caster Level

[jodyjohnson]

Both can be true.

CL is a requirement if you want to make the exact item listed. You can't give an item a CL higher than the creator's level.

CL is not a requirement if you want to make an item like the item listed. Requirements are only being of sufficient level to meet the components listed as Prereqs.

If you want to make the exact Pearl of Power statted in the DMG, CL must be 17th. A similar PoP can have lower CL but it wouldn't be exactly as described in the DMG since it's CL would not be 17th. Call it Malhavoc's Pearl of Power, and list it's actual CL with the item on your character record.

If I use Craft Construct to build a custom Iron Golem (he breaths paralysis gas), is it an Iron Golem? Yes.
Is it an Iron Golem? No.

 

[dcollins]

IMO, the answer is "only 17th level casters being able to create an item that will sell for 500gp" is the crap result, therefore caster level is not a prerequisite.

A better solution is to simply errata the caster level of pearls of power, as is done in the RPGA Living Greyhawk Campaign, which plays by the caster-level-is-a-minimum-on-creators rule. (Instead of breaking the whole system.)

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hi Everyone,

I've been following this thread and boy has it been a confusing ride!

Note that the DMG errata says:
[bq]Caster Level
Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215
Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading.
Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.[/bq]

In other words, caster level is not a prerequisite (unless specifically called out as such, as in the case of arms & armor which have a caster level prereq of 3 per plus).

So is this the correct and current stating of the rule regarding the caster level given in the DMG not being a prerequisite for creating that particular item?

In other words for a:

Pearl of Power: This seemingly normal pearl of average size and luster is a potent aid to all spellcasters who prepare spells (clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, and wizards). Once per day on command, a pearl of power enables the possessor to recall any one spell that she had prepared and then cast. The spell is then prepared again, just as if it had not been cast. The spell must be of a particular level, depending on the pearl. Different pearls exist for recalling one spell per day of each level from 1st through 9th and for the recall of two spells per day (each of a different level, 6th or lower).
Strong transmutation; CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be recalled; Price 1,000 gp (1st), 4,000 gp (2nd), 9,000 gp (3rd), 16,000 gp (4th), 25,000 gp (5th), 36,000 gp (6th), 49,000 gp (7th), 64,000 gp (8th), 81,000 gp (9th), or 70,000 gp (two spells).​

Is a PC with sufficient funds and time and the Craft Wondrous Item feat who is also capable of casting a 7th level spell but not an 8th or 9th level spell able to craft a Pearl of Power (7th) but not a Pearl of Power of the (8th) or (9th) empowerment?

If this is the case, I suppose CL 17 is given because this is the minimum caster level for the maximum effect of such an item.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Hypersmurf]

If this is the case, I suppose CL 17 is given because this is the minimum caster level for the maximum effect of such an item.

And yet elsewhere, CLs within an item entry are broken down when multiple CLs apply.

eg:
Strand of Prayer Beads
Faint, moderate or strong (many schools); CL 1st (blessing), 5th (healing), 7th (smiting), 9th (karma), 11th (wind walking), 17th (summons).

eg:
Bag of Tricks
Faint or moderate conjuration; CL 3rd (gray), 5th (rust), 9th (tan).

Per the originally-published text in the 3.5 DMG, you need a CL of 17 and the ability to cast first levels spells to make a 1st level Pearl of Power.

Once the errata are applied, you need a CL of 3 (for the CWI feat) and the ability to cast first level spells.

-Hyp.

 

[Staffan]

A better solution is to simply errata the caster level of pearls of power, as is done in the RPGA Living Greyhawk Campaign, which plays by the caster-level-is-a-minimum-on-creators rule. (Instead of breaking the whole system.)

In what way does allowing a 5th level cleric to make a +1 shield of arrow-catching (listed CL 8) break the system? 5th level wizard making a +1 flaming sword (listed CL 10)? 5th level whatever making Greater bracers of archery (listed CL 8)? 3rd level wizard making a chime of opening (listed CL 11)?

So is this the correct and current stating of the rule regarding the caster level given in the DMG not being a prerequisite for creating that particular item?

Yes.

Is a PC with sufficient funds and time and the Craft Wondrous Item feat who is also capable of casting a 7th level spell but not an 8th or 9th level spell able to craft a Pearl of Power (7th) but not a Pearl of Power of the (8th) or (9th) empowerment?

Precisely.

If this is the case, I suppose CL 17 is given because this is the minimum caster level for the maximum effect of such an item.

Highly likely.

 

[beaver1024]

After thinking about this, I agree with Skip. Has the rapture happened? I must have missed it . This is not a balance issue but a consistency issue. It ends up being a balance issue because wizards are crippled but I don't think it is a balance issue initially.

The reason why I think they came up with CL is the prereq is because the item pricing is based on the listed CL. If you have an item with a lower CL by rights the item price should be lower because the item is more susceptible to Dispel Magic and other caster level dependant effects. This is perfectly legitimate as a custom item but not the item as it is listed in the DMG. Hence if they allow the creation of items at the price stated by the DMG you have 2 effects. The items are overcosted when created at a lower caster level and undercosted when created at a higher caster level. To maintain consistency with the pricing guidelines, Skip came up with his ruling.

As dcollins said, to fix the problem, all they have to do is errata the CL's in the DMGs to sensible values.

 

[sjmiller]

I generally use the CL listed for items that are randomly placed in a treasure. If a PC (or NPC for that matter) meets all the spell, feat, a cash requirements, then they can create a magic item. The CL for that item would be the CL of the character making it. Pretty simple to me.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The reason why I think they came up with CL is the prereq is because the item pricing is based on the listed CL. If you have an item with a lower CL by rights the item price should be lower because the item is more susceptible to Dispel Magic and other caster level dependant effects.

Except that, in many cases, this doesn't really matter.

What's the difference between, say, a Belt of Giant Strength +4 at CL 5 and a CL 20?

The second one has a better chance of resisting a targeted dispel magic - and that's about it.

Is that *really* worth a price increase? How many targeted dispel magics against items have you seen since you started playing D&D 3E? I've seen exactly none.

For some items - like, say, Boots of Flying - the caster level matters *slightly* more. When activated, they affect you as if they had cast the flight spell, which lasts for 1 minute per caster level or, in this case, five minutes. You can use them up to three times per day.

Thus, Boots of Levitation at a higher caster level (like 10) might be meaningfully more useful.

Boots, Winged: These boots appear to be ordinary footgear. On command, the boots sprout wings at the heel and let the wearer fly, without having to maintain concentration, as if affected by a fly spell. He can fly three times day for up to 5 minutes per flight.

Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, fly; Price 16,000 gp;Weight 1 lb.

Now, the general formula for a Command activated item is Spell Level * Caster Level * 1,800, and when it has uses per day, that price is divided by (5 / Uses).

Using that formula, a "generic" Winged Boots would be 16,200 gp - easily rounded to the 16K present in the DMG.

So, what price would the notional "Awesome Winged Boots (CL 10) " have?

3 * 10 * 1,800 / (5/3) = 32,400 gp.

Here's an item where caster level actually matters - 3 uses at 10 minutes per day is much more useful than 3 uses at 5 minutes per day.

Therefore, the cost of the item should change - and, because the cost is based on the formulae presented in the DMG, it does.

 

[dcollins]

In what way does allowing a 5th level cleric to make a +1 shield of arrow-catching (listed CL 8) break the system? 5th level wizard making a +1 flaming sword (listed CL 10)?

A primary problem is this: What are the Market Prices for those items, under the core rules? What is the Market Price of the hypothetical CL3 pearl of power?

Everyone has an opinion, but in 5 years of asking, no designer has ever been able to give a straight answer to that (quotes & emails on my website). The rules support directly pricing variable caster levels for scrolls/potions/wands (see PHB, "Feats: Item Creation Feats: Item Cost", etc.). They fail to support pricing variable caster levels for Wondrous Items or any other items -- and they didn't need to, because as designed in the book, those caster levels are fixed.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

A primary problem is this: What are the Market Prices for those items, under the core rules? What is the Market Price of the hypothetical CL3 pearl of power?

You keep saying this is a problem. It isn't.

The price of those items is exactly the same as the price in the DMG. because - and read this slowly, because you keep missing it - they do not have an effect which is variable based on caster level.

How many spells does a CL 17 PoP (2) let you recall per day? One 2nd-level spell.
How many spells does a CL 10 PoP (2) let you recall per day? One 2nd-level spell.
How many spells does a CL 3 PoP (2) let you recall per day? One 2nd-level spell.

There is no meaningful reason, then, to change the price. Additional protection against targeted dispel magics is not meaningful enough to alter the price.

Arrow Catching is a +1 bonus equivalent property. Therefore, the price of that particular enhancement is entirely dependent upon the item it is placed on and, again, does not vary with caster level. It does not "Catch 1 arrow per day per caster level."