green slime
First Post
Piratecat said:
Artificer's Handbook
it is mentioned further up the page.
Item pricing question <answered by Sage and CS>
- Thread starter kreynolds
- Start date
Artificer's Handbook
it is mentioned further up the page.
The Souljourner
First Post
Does it scare anyone else when the response from customer service has such a blatant and horrible grammar error in it?
"Now that you've pointed that out specifically, I do no what you mean..." (emphasis mine)
Ug. Anyway... I would say, using 1.5 times the extra abilities is the better way... it shouldn't cost any more for the base ability... it is the *base* ability, right? That removes the problem of people making an item and then adding stuff to it in order to get around the 2x cost. And keep in mind, the final price for any item is whatever the DM decides. If you think it's too low or too high, adjust it.
About the Artificer's Handbook - any insight on what makes its system so much better than the on in the DMG? Not that I doubt it, the one in the DMG is pretty well flawed.
-The Souljourner
"Now that you've pointed that out specifically, I do no what you mean..." (emphasis mine)
Ug. Anyway... I would say, using 1.5 times the extra abilities is the better way... it shouldn't cost any more for the base ability... it is the *base* ability, right? That removes the problem of people making an item and then adding stuff to it in order to get around the 2x cost. And keep in mind, the final price for any item is whatever the DM decides. If you think it's too low or too high, adjust it.
About the Artificer's Handbook - any insight on what makes its system so much better than the on in the DMG? Not that I doubt it, the one in the DMG is pretty well flawed.
-The Souljourner
kreynolds
First Post
I posted this on the WotC boards, but I figured I'd drop it here too...
Here's an item whose price gets totally jacked up if both the table and sidebar are official. From Dragon Mag #312, there's a magic item that grants the following: +5 resistance bonus to saves, +10 bonus on Hide checks. It's priced at 30K.
First, something funky about it...the skill bonus is unnamed, but I'll be running with the assumption that it's supposed to be a competence bonus, here's how much that item should cost...
Resistance bonus; 5 x 5 x 1,000 x 2 (higher power on item with multiple powers) = 50,000
Hide bonus; 10 x 10 x 100 x 1.5 (secondary power) = 15,000
Total: 65,000 gp
That's quite a price difference. Now, let's look at the price just following the table...
Resistance bonus; 5 x 5 x 1,000 x 2 (higher power on item with multiple powers) = 50,000
Hide bonus; 10 x 10 x 100 = 10,000
Total: 55,000 gp
That's still a lot higher than it's listed price. Now let's look at the price just following the sidebar, i.e. the method from 3.0...
Resistance bonus; 5 x 5 x 1,000 = 25,000
Hide bonus; 10 x 10 x 100 x 1.5 (secondary power) = 15,000
Total: 40,000 gp
Using the traditional pricing method yields the closest result to the listed price in the mag. Interesting.
EDIT: By the way, as far as I can tell, all of the items in the Rogue's Galler for War of the Spider Queen are priced using 3.0 rules, so that explains the low prices listed there.
Here's an item whose price gets totally jacked up if both the table and sidebar are official. From Dragon Mag #312, there's a magic item that grants the following: +5 resistance bonus to saves, +10 bonus on Hide checks. It's priced at 30K.
First, something funky about it...the skill bonus is unnamed, but I'll be running with the assumption that it's supposed to be a competence bonus, here's how much that item should cost...
Resistance bonus; 5 x 5 x 1,000 x 2 (higher power on item with multiple powers) = 50,000
Hide bonus; 10 x 10 x 100 x 1.5 (secondary power) = 15,000
Total: 65,000 gp
That's quite a price difference. Now, let's look at the price just following the table...
Resistance bonus; 5 x 5 x 1,000 x 2 (higher power on item with multiple powers) = 50,000
Hide bonus; 10 x 10 x 100 = 10,000
Total: 55,000 gp
That's still a lot higher than it's listed price. Now let's look at the price just following the sidebar, i.e. the method from 3.0...
Resistance bonus; 5 x 5 x 1,000 = 25,000
Hide bonus; 10 x 10 x 100 x 1.5 (secondary power) = 15,000
Total: 40,000 gp
Using the traditional pricing method yields the closest result to the listed price in the mag. Interesting.
EDIT: By the way, as far as I can tell, all of the items in the Rogue's Galler for War of the Spider Queen are priced using 3.0 rules, so that explains the low prices listed there.
Last edited:
kreynolds
First Post
The Souljourner said:
Nah. He was just flustered 'cause I caught him with his pants down.
The Souljourner said:
Obviously, but the point is that the new "official" methods yield prices so frickin' high that you'll be adhocing them down in just about every single case.
The Souljourner said:
The first thing that comes to mind is the actual difficulty involved in creating items. It can be _really_ damn hard to create a continuous item, and as you know, continuous items tend to be the most powerful and/or gamebreaking. Basically, any item that is awfully powerful is inherently awfully difficult to create. The DM will rarely find himself in the position to have to say "no" to an item being created. Generally speaking, the rules seem to be set up to prevent just such a thing (though there is a rather big breakdown at epic levels, say 40+ or 50+). Basically, your ability to craft a magic item is directly related to how many spells you can cast in a day of a given spell level. So, either you can make it or you can't. It's nice.
There's some funky math, but if you're any good with excel, it's not a problem.
The system is very forgiving with advantages and disadvantages, curses, item instability, item intelligence, custom items, etc. It has a lot of advice about how to handle certain elements of it depending upon the level of magic in your game. It also lists ways to make items easier or more difficult to create, using added advantages or drawbacks.The book itself, unfortunately, is organized like hell. I found it extremely messy, and couldn't even make much sense of the spell slot system until I organized all the factors into a single Word doc. However, that aside, it's a very promising system.
EDIT: By the way, the breakdown that I'm speaking of is something like this. A magic ring that bestows a continuous effect of a 2nd-level spell only costs about 11,560 gp to make (no XP) and has a market price of roughly 23,120 gp. That's pretty damn cheap. However, here's the part of the system that keeps the DM out of trouble; In order to make that ring, you have to be able to cast 17 2nd-level spells in a single day (you can use higher level spell slots to cast more 2nd-level spells if you need to). If you can't cast that many 2nd-level spells, you can't make it. However, once you _can_ cast that many 2nd-level spells, the item is awfully cheap (depending upon the actual effect, of course).
Last edited:
jgsugden
Legend
No formula is going to cut it. No matter how hard we work to come up with a good formula for creating a good price for magic items, the formula will result in some items being way overpriced and some items being way underpriced. There are too many complex issues that intertwine to come up with a formula that can cover all the complexities.
I suggest using the DMG methods (with all this garbage from custserv/the sage tossed in) as a guideline to get you started, but once the item is put together, compare it to the items in the DMG of that price and see if it truly deserves to be priced at that price. If not, forget the guideline and figure out a fair price.
D&D should be balanced. When you start breaking down the nitty gritty of spells, magic items, class abilities, etc ..., no formula will ever cut the mustard and work 100% of the time. In the end, subjective reasoning and interpretation will need to be used to make the game work. Firm rules and formulas can only handle so much.
I suggest using the DMG methods (with all this garbage from custserv/the sage tossed in) as a guideline to get you started, but once the item is put together, compare it to the items in the DMG of that price and see if it truly deserves to be priced at that price. If not, forget the guideline and figure out a fair price.
D&D should be balanced. When you start breaking down the nitty gritty of spells, magic items, class abilities, etc ..., no formula will ever cut the mustard and work 100% of the time. In the end, subjective reasoning and interpretation will need to be used to make the game work. Firm rules and formulas can only handle so much.
reapersaurus
Explorer
Ahhh, welcome to what the rest of us have done... (at least the giving up part.)kreynolds said:
For me, the official rules from WotC have been proven to be inadequate at answering many ticky conflicts and irritating combinations, and there is obviously no interest from WotC in clarifying even simple rules issues.
Item creation is unfortunately impossible to formulize, since spells are ridiculously incomparable in power.
Like I've said many times, when you can't even make an item based on a 1st level spell without throwing out the formulas, than they are only useful as a general guide.
I'm actually kinda surprised about your continued dedication to trying to get the rules "right", when WotC has proven that they are not interested in them to the level that we are.
Your persistance is commendable, kreynolds, but ultimately unsatisfying, without WotC doing more to support people who attempt to follow the rules to the letter.
der_kluge
Adventurer
I agree with Kreynolds. Just toss out the DMG rules and use the AH rules. Well, I could be biased, of course. No, our system isn't perfect either, but at least the method for how we arrived at the cost is an open book. There is no fudging involved. So, that's the beauty of it.
Last edited:
kreynolds
First Post
die_kluge said:
Oh, there is _always_ fudging. I've looked at your system very closely, and while I certainly perfer it to the DMG, there is still fudging. Any statement by anyone indicating otherwise for any system is a balatant lie.
The difference is that you actually included recommendations for certain types of fudging, but there's still _some_ fudging in the end.In other words...excellent job on minimizing the fudge!
kreynolds
First Post
OK. Here's an interesting dilema. Let's take a piwafwi from Dragon #302. It grants a +8 armor bonus to the wearer, and when worn with the hood drawn over the head, grants a +10 competence bonus on Hide checks.
Listed (and 3.0) Price: 68,000 gp
armor bonus, 8 x 8 x 1000 = 64,000; hide bonus, 10 x 10 x 20 x 2 (secondary power) = 4,000
3.5 Price (using only the sidebar): 79,000 gp
armor bonus, 8 x 8 x 1000 = 64,000; hide bonus, 10 x 10 x 100 x 1.5 (secondary power) = 15,000
3.5 Price (using only the table): 138,000 gp
armor bonus, 8 x 8 x 1000 x 2 (higher power doubled for multiple powers) = 128,000; hide bonus, 10 x 10 x 100 = 10,000
3.5 Price (using both the table and the sidebar): 143,000 gp
armor bonus, 8 x 8 x 1000 x 2 (higher power doubled for multiple powers) = 128,000; hide bonus, 10 x 10 x 100 x 1.5 (secondary power) = 15,000
Those are some _huge_ differences. But that's nothin'. Check this out...
Robe of Blending (Listed Price): 30,000 gp
disguise self at will, 1 x 10 x 2000 (not a continuous item, so no multiplier) = 20,000; hide bonus, 10 x 10 x 100 = 10,000
The robe of blending in the DMG doesn't follow the table, the sidebar, or even 3.0. Interesting, no?
Listed (and 3.0) Price: 68,000 gp
armor bonus, 8 x 8 x 1000 = 64,000; hide bonus, 10 x 10 x 20 x 2 (secondary power) = 4,000
3.5 Price (using only the sidebar): 79,000 gp
armor bonus, 8 x 8 x 1000 = 64,000; hide bonus, 10 x 10 x 100 x 1.5 (secondary power) = 15,000
3.5 Price (using only the table): 138,000 gp
armor bonus, 8 x 8 x 1000 x 2 (higher power doubled for multiple powers) = 128,000; hide bonus, 10 x 10 x 100 = 10,000
3.5 Price (using both the table and the sidebar): 143,000 gp
armor bonus, 8 x 8 x 1000 x 2 (higher power doubled for multiple powers) = 128,000; hide bonus, 10 x 10 x 100 x 1.5 (secondary power) = 15,000
Those are some _huge_ differences. But that's nothin'. Check this out...
Robe of Blending (Listed Price): 30,000 gp
disguise self at will, 1 x 10 x 2000 (not a continuous item, so no multiplier) = 20,000; hide bonus, 10 x 10 x 100 = 10,000
The robe of blending in the DMG doesn't follow the table, the sidebar, or even 3.0. Interesting, no?
