Iterative sneak attacks?

[Winternight]

This is 3.0 though,

Whenever a rogue attacks an opponent that the rogue flanks, or who is denied a Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (such as when caught flat-footed), the rogue’s attack is a sneak attack. It makes no difference how many attacks the rogue makes or whether the opponent is aware of the rogue or not. ... Note that in earlier versions of the game only the first attack a rogue made in a round could be a sneak attack. That is no longer the case.

but as I understand this if you are invisble you get the full attack with sneak damage.
If you are hiding (=mundane invi) it is the same.
in the next round the rogues turn is after the victims, so they are not flatfooted.
If he get`s a initative boost (by haste or by cat`s grace the rogue acts before the enemy and they are flatfooted. (this is a interpretation of the "newcomers enter the fray" DMG 62)

 

[Thanee]

Yes, but, since you become visible after your first attack (and a full attack consists of multiple seperate attacks), the target no longer loses his Dex bonus to AC and therefore you do not gain sneak attack bonuses.

Sure, it doesn't matter, how many attacks the rogue makes (as long as the target is flanked or is denied his Dex bonus to AC), but it does matter whether the target is denied his Dex bonus to AC or not! As long as this condition applies, the rogue can sneak attack with as many attacks as he can make (sneak attacks are not limited to but one attack per round).

As above, if the target is still denied his Dex bonus to AC for some reason (i.e. surprise/flat-footed, only possible out of combat or at the start of combat), you can continue with those sneak attacks, otherwise all remaining attacks are just normal.

Bye
Thanee

 

[The Souljourner]

So that solves that part of the question. If the Rogue isn't trying to Hide again then the Rogue effectively gets a surprise round against his chosen opponent since that opponent is technically an "Unaware Combatant", at least as far as the Rogue is concerned. Here's the SRD on Surprise and Unaware Combatants...

So yes, as long as the Rogue doesn't try to hide again, he does get a full sequence of Sneak Attacks because that foe was unaware of him (surprised) and thus flat-footed as far as the Rogue is concerned. If he wants to hide again he can get 1 Sneak Attack and then Hide again as a Move Action at -20 to the check.

Surprise rounds can only be at the beginning of combat, not in the middle of combat. Note the line "a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin". Once you're in combat, there's no such thing as surprise.

Second, since during a surprise round you can only do a standard action, you can't do iterative attacks anyway, so the point is moot.

Winternight - that text only applies if the condition that allows you to sneak attack still exists after the first attack. Improved/Greater Invisibility? Sure, get your iterative sneak attacks.... same with flanking. However, regular invisibility and the Hide skill explicitly say that after the first attack, you become visible. Since you are no longer hidden/invisible, you do not qualify for sneak attack, thus the rest of your iterative attacks are not sneak attacks.

-The Souljourner

 

[Keith]

Yes, but, since you become visible after your first attack (and a full attack consists of multiple seperate attacks), the target no longer loses his Dex bonus to AC and therefore you do not gain sneak attack bonuses.


Bye
Thanee

I agree with the other things you wrote, but not this one. Whatever the reason, including invisibility, is for rendering someone flat-footed relative to an attacker, they remain that way until such time as they act, I believe. As I understand the rules, the Rogue could do sneak attack damage on every attack it made until the target acts and ceases being flat-footed. Being aware that the rogue is there is not a factor in the middle of the rogue’s attack sequence.

I actually think that an invisible rogue could attack during a surprise round (becoming visible), then win initiative, and take a full attack action, getting sneak attack damage on every attack, after which the opponent would finally act and not be flat-footed.

Cheers!

 

[DM2]

I agree with the other things you wrote, but not this one. Whatever the reason, including invisibility, is for rendering someone flat-footed relative to an attacker, they remain that way until such time as they act, I believe. As I understand the rules, the Rogue could do sneak attack damage on every attack it made until the target acts and ceases being flat-footed. Being aware that the rogue is there is not a factor in the middle of the rogue’s attack sequence.

I actually think that an invisible rogue could attack during a surprise round (becoming visible), then win initiative, and take a full attack action, getting sneak attack damage on every attack, after which the opponent would finally act and not be flat-footed.

Cheers!

The only way to render someone flat-footed is by beating them on initiative at the beginning of combat and/or being able to act during a surprise round when they aren't able to act.

Noone is arguing that if the rogue full attacks someone that is flat footed he only gets one sneak attack. Heck, the rogue can get a surprise round (at the beginning of combat only), sneak attack from range with a bow, win initiative against the foe the next round, and take iterative sneak attacks as well..

However, once combat has started, if someone who is or hidden or invisible attacks one of the (no longer flat footed) combatants, that combatant does not become flat footed. He is denied his dex bonus against an effectively (in either case) invisible foe).

Therefore, the first attack by the hidden/invis foe is a sneak attack. After that first attack (immediately after it) the previously hidden/invis foe becomes visible, and the combatant is aware of him now.

Therefore, the combatant is no longer denied his dex bonus.

Someone correct me if the definition of "flat footed" has changed since 3.0, but I don't think it has.

DM2

 

[Thanee]

I agree with the other things you wrote, but not this one. Whatever the reason, including invisibility, is for rendering someone flat-footed relative to an attacker, they remain that way until such time as they act, I believe.

This is wrong.

You are flat-footed at the beginning of combat (and only then), until you act. Any other situations that let you lose your Dex bonus to AC do not work like this, but rather apply as long as they last (i.e. until after the first attack in case of invisibility).

I actually think that an invisible rogue could attack during a surprise round (becoming visible), then win initiative, and take a full attack action, getting sneak attack damage on every attack, after which the opponent would finally act and not be flat-footed.

Correct!

But it has nothing to do with invisibility!

The opponent (or rather victim ) is denied his Dex bonus to AC because of other factors and therefore - even when the invisibility ceases - the rogue can still sneak attack.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Keith]

Noone is arguing that if the rogue full attacks someone that is flat footed he only gets one sneak attack. Heck, the rogue can get a surprise round (at the beginning of combat only), sneak attack from range with a bow, win initiative against the foe the next round, and take iterative sneak attacks as well..

However, once combat has started, if someone who is or hidden or invisible attacks one of the (no longer flat footed) combatants, that combatant does not become flat footed. He is denied his dex bonus against an effectively (in either case) invisible foe).

Therefore, the first attack by the hidden/invis foe is a sneak attack. After that first attack (immediately after it) the previously hidden/invis foe becomes visible, and the combatant is aware of him now.


DM2

Sorry, yea, it looks like I missed the context on that one. Apologies. As far as I know, that is right. I had read the thread, but must have, ah, skipped a bit.

Cheers

 

[Keith]

Thanee,

More of the same...I didn’t grasp the context, evidently. I still don’t ,actually, but at least I won’t argue anything this time. Sorry for the waste of time!
Cheers

 

[RigaMortus]

I agree. Once you become visible, your opponent becomes aware of you, thus retains their Dex bonus, so no sneak attack after that (unless you are flanking of course).

 

[silentspace]

What you guys are saying is clearly right, and I'm not arguing the point, just saying what I've seen as a house rule, and was thinking about. I'm wondering what you fine people think? :

If a rogue (or I guess, by extension any character), through hiding/invisibility whatever, is previously undetected by an opponent, and he remains undetected, he gets a free partial action (equivalent of surprise round) when he enters combat, regardless of whether combat has otherwise started. It doesn't work if the opponents saw him and then he went invisible or something like that, since the opponent would be "aware" of them.