Its Official: I HATE Vitality/Wound. You?

[wingsandsword]

Wound/Vitality is an excellent system, it makes combat deadly, which it should be. A lucky hit can bring down a character at any time, which, frankly, makes PC's a little more shy about getting into combat needlessly. A single guard with a crossbow/blaster rifle/assault rifle can technically drop a 20th level character, so everybody has to be a little more careful.

It doesn't fit well with the typical D&D mode of "kick in the door, wade through the orcs cutting them down like wheat, take a cure spell, repeat in the next room". It works very well though for Sci-Fi or modern settings where one lucky gun/blaster/laser hit can bring down even an advanced character in one hit, or for more "gritty" fantasy games where heroes get really hurt more often and sometimes more seriously.

Yes, it make combat deadly, and it fits Star Wars perfectly. Combat in Star Wars can be pretty deadly. You don't see main characters just standing around and shooting, they fight for a short while (a few rounds in d20 terms) and usually flee. Combat is deadly.

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan didn't stand and fight against the droidekas, they ran. They rescued Amidala in a short fight, then insisted on fleeing. Qui-Gon fled from Darth Maul on Tatooine. On Geonosis, when the Jedi couldn't flee, they were being cut down in hails of blaster fire pretty quick. Jedi went down very quickly to blaster fire from clonetroopers during the Purge.

Han fled back to the Falcon when escaping Tatooine after a few moments of fire, they fled into a garbage chute in the Death Star rather than stand up to a hail of blaster fire. Obi-Wan didn't rush in and cut down the stormtroopers guarding the tractor beam, he sneaked past them and avoided a fight. Obi-Wan told Luke to run back to the Falcon to escape the Death Star, the Battle of Hoth was a delaying action fought from behind cover, the Rebels on Endor were always diving for cover (and Leia got hurt pretty badly by that stray shot), while the Ewoks who stood and fought were blasted.

Noplace in Star Wars does a character get an attidude of "I've got 100 HP, those 3d6 blasters can't stop me" and ignore the threat, they worry that any shot could hit true and hurt or kill them, which is the attitude that WP/VP brings out.

Based on the movies, fights in Star Wars, except for major lightsaber duels, are typically short and fast, only a few rounds before one side or the other runs away. Even most duels don't last too long and somebody is usually seriously injured (at best).

If WP/VP aren't working right in your game, it may be that you're running your fights like a typical D&D HP fight, where PC's are expected to fight many creatures for rounds at a time, and the PC's fight until one side or the other is defeated. With WP/VP retreats become more important, and avoiding fights (or choosing your fights carefully) becoems very important).

 

[Darrin Drader]

You think that's bad, try the HP system they have worked out in the Babylon 5 D20 game. You start out with 10 or so hit points, but after that, you only get between 1 and 3 HP per level. That means you could very easily have a 10th level character with less than 30 HP.

Personally, I like VP/WP very much. I think it adds a certain sense of deadliness to combat. Someone with a lighsaber should be able to cut an opponent in half. Someone with a well-placed blaster shot should be able to drop their enemy. My experience is that if the game is being properly balanced, this will still work towards the players advantage more often that not (in other words, when properly balanced, players have a strong advantage in the D20 system). If you're routinely losing 4 out of 6 PCs, chances are pretty good that your GM is throwing encounters at you that are tougher than they should be. Either that, or he's one of the luckiest dice rollers in RPG history and therefore has no business GMing in the first place.

Yes, I'm saying that people who roll extremely lucky should not run games. They should be players.

 

[Pbartender]

I think the problem lies not in how a critical threat is determined but how it is confirmed.

I thought in Spycraft if you 'rolled a 20' all you had to do was spend a Action Dice to confirm? IMO the system is NOT that well set up to 'deal with it'

Which is actually a lot better than a confirming attack roll, if you look at the Spycraft critical hit rules it their entirety.

First, though you can gain extra Action Dice as the game progresses, your pool of dice is fairly limited. That makes players think hard about spending a action dice that could be better used elsewhere, or cashed in for bonus XP at the end of the session.

Second, the opponent, if I'm not mistaken, can spend action dice to cancel a critical hit... or 'up the (action dice required) ante' of the critical hit.

Third, only the most imporant and powerful of NPCs can use Action Dice or perform critical hits. In Spycraft, Darth Vader and Boba Fett would have Action Dice and be able to score critical hits. Stormtroopers and even most Imperial Officers would not and could not.

That makes it a lot safer for the characters against mooks, who still have to slog through the PCs' vitality points, but still keeps the BBEGs dangerous.

 

[Ranger REG]

Meh. Cover is your friend.

I agree with earlier poster, it puts a sense of mortal danger that you'd never think about in D&D.

And yet for all that, there are some gamers still think it is not dangerous enough. Honestly, I don't know what they like. They like a sense of danger but the heroes shouldn't die fast enough. It's like being in a professional boxing match but the heroes get to wear safety equipment like headgears and padded vests.

*shakes head disappointedly*

If you don't like VP/WP, then more power to you. The beauty of the d20 System is you can pick and choose which mechanics is good enough for you and your group. So, go ahead and substitute VP/WP with HP in your Star Wars.

 

[Greg K]

Ya, its a shame when players have to fear dying in a game......

Lol. This is my reaction as well.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Especially high level Jedi, who ever gets the FIRST crit wins! Now true, in the movies when Jedi fight it sure seems like it might be a big blow or another tries out the other dude...

First 'crit' wins is PERFECT for high level Jedi(in fact, perfect for ANY Jedi) when you look at the movies.

Remember, Vitality is NOT being hit. All the parrying, dodging, etc, is losing Vitality points. Then, at some point, in every single duel, one lucky(or well timed, if the opponent has been beaten down[i.e. out of VP]) blow ends the duel. You do NOT trade blows in Star Wars like is done in D&D and most fantasy games. One hit ends the fights, or at least brings them right to the close.

So, for Star Wars, the system perfectly fits the style of the movies, especially when it comes to Jedi. And really, IME(which is a very, very large amount of SWd20 games with multiple groups), critical hits are NOT common at all. If yours are as common as you seem to imply they are...check the GM for loaded dice.

 

[Pbartender]

So, for Star Wars, the system perfectly fits the style of the movies, especially when it comes to Jedi. And really, IME(which is a very, very large amount of SWd20 games with multiple groups), critical hits are NOT common at all. If yours are as common as you seem to imply they are...check the GM for loaded dice.

To look at it another way...

Vitality points are exactly why Stormtrooper fire can be referred to as 'accurate and precise', why they mow down a ship full of Rebel crewmen, and yet continually miss the heroes by anywhere from fractions of an inch to feet.

 

[Romnipotent]

I've killed 7 characters in 6 weeks using HP system. I think when I change over to Armour as DR, VP/WP, and my mana system I made that the players will appreciate it all a lot more and may survive far better!

And what part of a rant is humble?

Lethality should be there, you're an adventurer. Not an ice cream salesman!

 

[Remathilis]

I agree that V/WP can make SW more SWish, but it makes it less RPGish. I think thats where I kinda start getting annoyed. First Crit wins seems to really through skill and ability out the window and focuses on PURE luck.

In a typical combat (lets say 6 PC Jedi vs 6 slightly less leveled Sith) We average 5 crits between the parties involved. One of those crits will inadvertedly be against a PC in 1st/2nd round of combat, leaving him OUT of the rest of the combat. The ratio is likely 3:2.

Lightsaber (19-20) + Improved Crit (18-20) Plus Personalization (1500 credits; +1 threat) means a Jedi can crit on a 17-20.

A Martial Artist with Improved Crit can Crit on a 16-20. 3d4 damage + Str.

A Solider with Imp Crit and a Personalized Blaster Rifle Crits 17-20 and can have up to 6 attacks in a round. Throw on a Force Point and Def becomes no obsticle. (Yes, they are rare, but DSers can call on the Dark side for Free...)

Maybe our group is predestined for an abnormal amount of crits, but it seems the only thing that takes us down (or takes down our foes) is Crits. Vitality is practically useless cept for powering force skills.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Combat under V/WP is essentially russian roulette.

Which is why I also hate it, as a game mechanic. It favours random chance over *everything* else, including experience, skill, endurance and strategy, to name but a few.

While this all might be realistic

No. No, it's not. (IMO) --- see above...

Ya, its a shame when players have to fear dying in a game

The problem is nothing like that at all, as far as I'm concerned --- see above... Players are very aware that their characters can and quite probably will die in any type of campaign I run, and wow am I not using vitality/wound in any of them, now or ever.