Its Official: I HATE Vitality/Wound. You?

Remathilis said:
I agree that V/WP can make SW more SWish, but it makes it less RPGish.
You mean less D&Dish? How is making combat more deadly making it less like a roleplaying game? Many games have systems that are a lot more deadly than WP/VP, and being able to shrug off many weapons hits with no real danger is a trademark feature of D&D, not RPG's in general

From running a yearlong Star Wars campaign, I never saw many critical hits vs. PC's, and looking at your example, I think I realize why, you need to realize you can't run Star Wars d20 like D&D and expect the same results.

Oh, being a Dark Side character doesn't let you get free Force Points for calling on the Dark Side. "Calling on the Dark Side" is just an option when spending an existing Force Point that grants low-level characters extra dice, but fewer dice to higher level characters (and Darksiders can only call on the Dark Side). Anytime you put a villain with Force Points in, you should expect injuries or fatalities, they are best reserved for major and recurring villains.

In most Star Wars games, the typical hostile encounter will be with goons, stormtroopers, or battle droids, all between 1st to 4th level characters with no VP that go down in one hit, and have weapons that crit on a 20 or 19-20, and characters can quickly get defense bonuses high enough that mean that they are hit only on a natural 20, especially with cover, fighting defensively, defensive martial arts, Lightsaber/Knight/Master Defense, Combat Expertise, and so on. A lack of VP in their opponents means that most of their foes will fall in one hit, which means the fight is over before an threats are likely to be rolled, and if the fight goes longer one side or the other may run before their luck runs out.

Also don't forget that armor grants DR against wound hits, and you can get up to DR 3 from light armor. A Soldier with a 12 CON could easily take better armor proficiencies with their bonus feats to get Medium and Heavy armor, or Toughness (15 WP with DR 7 is pretty good security against a stray blaster shot). Don't disregard Toughness, unlike D&D it's not a nearly useless feat, 3 WP can be a margin of survival.

Characters with personalized weapons, Improved Critical, Advanced Martial Arts and the like are supposed to be very rare. Lightsaber-wielding villains are not cannon fodder, and a party should pretty much never be facing an entire party of Dark Jedi or Sith (unless you're in a Tales of the Jedi/Knights of the Old Republic game, in which case the game should be deadly anyway, the TotJ comics were pretty deadly with Jedi getting killed by Sith a lot).

Running around with Lightsabers? The Lightsaber Defense feat tree might be good for you then, and don't forget Combat Expertise either. A high Defense is your best defense against a critical hit, as they still have to confirm.

When you put NPC's out with any enhanced-crit range abilities, you have to expect injuries, PC's have to know to play defensively as well. WP/VP isn't condusive to the D&D "let's all have a big brawl and stand around and whittle away at each other's Hit Points" style of play.

Look back to the movies, most of the fights are against thugs, troopers, droids and other low-level foes. Fights against higher level enemies are notable, and somebody often dies or the fight ends with a critical hit (Obi Wan v. Maul, Obi-Wan vs. Anakin, Luke vs. Vader both times, were all fights that ended on a critical hit). Luke and Leia each suffered critical hits from random blaster fire in Return of the Jedi (for a low damage roll), but both were signifcantly hurt out of nowhere by random fire.
 

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I wasn't that big a fan of it either... did make for some very lethal combat.

Finished a 8th-12th level dark side redemption game recently - I'm pretty sure our GM just fudged the dice on wounds. I don't really have a problem with that as I think it made for a more interesting story. Probably not the route I would have taken though.

Most of the main battles had to be against large groups, or against something you couldn't fight - ticking bombs, sith ghosts and the like. :D Did make for more variety than the one BBEG I often see in DnD games.

In the post game deconstruction, we all commented on the lethality. Considered allowing Force Points to buy off criticals - however I think that would become all they were used for quite rapidly. I'd consider introducing fate points, but that's my answer to everything! Do like Remathilis idea a lot - be tempted to expand that out into a critical damage table?
 


wingsandsword said:
If WP/VP aren't working right in your game, it may be that you're running your fights like a typical D&D HP fight, where PC's are expected to fight many creatures for rounds at a time, and the PC's fight until one side or the other is defeated. With WP/VP retreats become more important, and avoiding fights (or choosing your fights carefully) becoems very important).

I love it when people tell me that I don't understand or "get it" or "running it the wrong way"

I don't like the system and have played with it a lot... works for you YA TEAM and bully for you. Does not mean that it works for all or that you have some insight the rest of us lack

Gaming is about pretend and everyone has a different idea of what is "right" and "good". Different opions are not bad they are just the way of the gaming world
 

Karl Green said:
I love it when people tell me that I don't understand or "get it" or "running it the wrong way"

I don't like the system and have played with it a lot... works for you YA TEAM and bully for you. Does not mean that it works for all or that you have some insight the rest of us lack

Gaming is about pretend and everyone has a different idea of what is "right" and "good". Different opions are not bad they are just the way of the gaming world
Well, I hate it when people use that kind of thing, too...but in this case, its true. You CAN'T run a Star Wars game like a D&D game. If you are, why play Star Wars? D&D in space would work better. Star Wars has a pre-defined style and expectations, many of which DON'T EXIST in D&D.

Wingsandsword explained the Star Wars style very well...better than I could have. But he's right. Star Wars is not D&D in space. Not that I'm saying people who don't enjoy the VP/WP system in SWd20 are trying to play D&D in space, but with statements like "I agree that V/WP can make SW more SWish, but it makes it less RPGish.", I can help but read "RPGish" as "D&Dish."
 

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
but with statements like "I agree that V/WP can make SW more SWish, but it makes it less RPGish.", I can help but read "RPGish" as "D&Dish."
* Sighs loudly like a low growl *

Remathilis, just stick to Dungeons & Dragons and sell your Unearthed Arcana copy on Ebay.
 

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
Well, I hate it when people use that kind of thing, too...but in this case, its true. You CAN'T run a Star Wars game like a D&D game. If you are, why play Star Wars? D&D in space would work better. Star Wars has a pre-defined style and expectations, many of which DON'T EXIST in D&D.

WELL my point is the IMO (only) VP/WP does NOT make Starwars MORE Starwars and less D&D... I just don't feel that way. I DON'T mind the system THAT much... it does what it does. I just don't see thinks like Jedi getting all that tired from using their Force Powers all the want. I don't think "first crit wins" is that realistic or cinimatic. It is just personal taste. In NONE of the games I played in SW did we kick the door down and start blasting BUT that had nothing to do with the system. If fact most of our complains where that we could not do ANYTHING like the movie's heroes. We were 'extras' not the heroes.

Anyway I AM NOT trying to say that VP/WP is bad and that people who use it are either... it is just a different system that myself and my friends don't use if we can help it. that's all, it did not work for us
 

I like deadly systems because they promote tension and drama, which has the nice side effect of instilling a sense of mortality to a game. When combat is unpredictable and one good hit can drop anybody players will learn to plan more and utilize more skills and strategies as opposed to Smashdoor gaming, which bores me to tears.
 

I like gurps because an arrow through the heart can kill you... and not just sorta scratch... same with VP/WP

lethality makes players more in tune with not being used to taking on things that they can beat. in VP/WP a Giant is a wonderful thing to fear!
 

My only exposure to the system was in Green Ronin's Skull and Bones, where I found it worked great.

It's the perfect system for games that don't feature healing abilities, since VP recover so swiftly they're usually fully available each encounter. That took some adjustment for me as a DM, used to characters steadily decreasing in HP as a game session went on.

And Skull & Bones had a really great feature for characters who ran out of WP: Rolling the Bones. When your Con (WP) value drops to half its total, you can either fall unconscious or "Roll The Bones" and, if you roll well, stay conscious. Once your Con drops to 0, you MUST Roll The Bones. If your result is low, it's bad. Worst case scenario: your character loses a life. Cause, see, characters in S&B have a certain number of lives, so they can survive a certain number of otherwise fatal events. The player doesn't know how many lives their character has, which makes for plenty of tense/fun moments.

Skull and Bones is a GREAT game, I gotta say.
 

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