D&D 5E It's Official! Most of my encounters are "Deadly" (now updated with info through the end of 2022!)

[Stalker0]

but then you compare the sahuagin to the party, not the other monsters. I do not consider CR 1/2 to be significantly lower than CR 1, 2, or 3, which they are mostly paired with. In Encounter 73, there is a single CR 6 monster with them, but I think the sheer number of CR 1/2 sahuagin (30!) means they are definitely taking some resources from the party (if only HP). Even killing 5 per round will take 6 rounds, while there are 9 other higher CR threats that will have 6 rounds of actions against the party. Time is another resource.

Its also worth noting that the Sahuagin's blood frenzy means they are going to be at advantage against the party for the majority of the fight. So their attack roll is more like +8, and when your talking 10,20,30 attacks a round at +8.....yeah that's going to bring some pain to your party. further, it basically takes 2 attacks to take out one of them assuming mostly average damage, so your not cutting through hoardes of them unless you have good fireball type action, and depending on how they are spread out (or god forbid its underwater) well you have some problems.

 

[Flamestrike]

I do not consider CR 1/2 to be significantly lower than CR 1, 2, or 3, which they are mostly paired with.

If I took half your money, have I taken a significant amount of your money?

If I took 3/4 of your money, have I taken a significant amount of your money?

If I took 5/6 of your money, have I taken a significant amount of your money?

I consider half as dangerous as the other monsters to be significantly less dangerous relative to the other monsters.

I'd likely count them as a single monster (so a single CR 3 and 6 x CR 1/2's would have an overall multiplier of 1.5).

It's a subjective call, but a quick eyeball at the party composition and basic PC capabilities at this level (remember, difficulty is also relative to the party, circumstances, set up etc) tells me that that difficulty is about right.

 

[Flamestrike]

Its also worth noting that the Sahuagin's blood frenzy means they are going to be at advantage against the party for the majority of the fight. So their attack roll is more like +8, and when your talking 10,20,30 attacks a round at +8.....yeah that's going to bring some pain to your party.

No it really wont. They need to be in melee to get 2 attacks, and they need to be wounded to get Blood Frenzy.

And we're dealing with 7th level PCs. 4 of them. Even with 12 Sahaugin that's 3 each, and a party of that level would wipe the floor with them, inside of 3 rounds (inside of 2 rounds if rested).

Which they would be expected to do, because it's only a medium encounter.

An unwounded 7th level Wizard, Cleric or Barbarian/ Fighter on his own could take out 10 of them in relative safety.

It would be a Deadly encounter for that solo PC, but if fully rested, he should win.

 

[Stalker0]

No it really wont. They need to be in melee to get 2 attacks, and they need to be wounded to get Blood Frenzy.

And we're dealing with 7th level PCs. 4 of them. Even with 12 Sahaugin that's 3 each, and a party of that level would wipe the floor with them, inside of 3 rounds (inside of 2 rounds if rested).

Which they would be expected to do, because it's only a medium encounter.

An unwounded 7th level Wizard, Cleric or Barbarian/ Fighter on his own could take out 10 of them in relative safety.

It would be a Deadly encounter for that solo PC, but if fully rested, he should win.

I'm talking about that last encounter, 30 CR 1/2 sahuagin (all with 2 attacks) + 5 CR 1s + 3 CR 3 + 1 CR 6

 

[Flamestrike]

I'm talking about that last encounter, 30 CR 1/2 sahuagin (all with 2 attacks) + 5 CR 1s + 3 CR 3 + 1 CR 6

I haven't got data on the encounter set up (Ambush, environmental situation), or the PCs abilities (presence of magic items etc.).

At an eyeball without that information, I rate the 30 Sahagun to be significantly lower than the CR of the other monsters.

Not that it matters, because even without those CR 1/2s factored in at all, the encounter is still Deadly (x2). Factoring in the Sahagun but treating them as a single monster or not multiplying due to their presence, but only the presence of the other monsters (3000XP x 2.5) brings it up to Deadly (x3).

If I were to count them individually it would be Deadly (x4) so we're really just splitting hairs at this point.

It's a deadly encounter, and a party that is not fully rested likely dies with a good set up by the DM, or bad rolls or both.

 

[Flamestrike]

My only point is that you need to take into account a lot of subjective considerations and make some calls during the encounter difficulty calculations.

Encounter set up (Ambush, magic items, planning, environmental factors) and (relative CR) are some of those considerations.

You cant just plug in PC level and Monster CR into a spreadsheet and get a definitive result. You've gotta make some judgement calls.

 

[Rabulias]

I consider half as dangerous as the other monsters to be significantly less dangerous relative to the other monsters.

So in the case of a CR 20 monster teamed up with 5 CR 10 monsters, you would dismiss the CR 10 creatures in assessing the encounter's difficulty?

 

[Flamestrike]

So in the case of a CR 20 monster teamed up with 5 CR 10 monsters, you would dismiss the CR 10 creatures in assessing the encounter's difficulty?

Depends on the Party (which you have omitted). I have to decide if those CR 10 monsters significantly contribute to the threat of the encounter to the party (and relative to the CR 20) to warrant multiplication at step 4.

It's quite likely they would pose a relevant threat to most parties, so I'd likely count them for multiplication purposes.

In our specific case, the monsters are CR 1/2, the party ae 7th level (and quite capable of taking a dozen out with a single action via Fireball, Hypnotic pattern or similar) and they're significantly lower in challenge rating than the other monsters.

CR 1/2 monsters do not significantly contribute to the threat of that encounter to a 7th level party. They're likely slaughtered within a round or two at most. As I've already pointed out, Hypnotic pattern or Conjure animals mostly takes care of them (and each of the two primary casters have 4 slots of 3rd level or higher), and our Barbarian/ Fighter could literally take on a dozen on his own, mopping them up in 4-5 rounds with a use of Rage and an Action surge.

They're Mooks. Minions. Extras. They buy the high CR 'Boss' a round or two of extra attacks.

I would not individually count them at step 4. Instead, I'd treat them as a single monster (so for example, a single CR 3, and 6 x CR 1/2s vs this a party of 7th level PCs gets a x1.5 XP multiplier instead of a x2.5 multiplier).

It's a subjective call, relative to your party (and their strengths and weaknesses) and not a 'strictly applied mathematical formula'.

 

[Stalker0]

our Barbarian/ Fighter could literally take on a dozen on his own, mopping them up in 4-5 rounds with a use of Rage and an Action surge.

A standard CR 1/2 Sahuagin has 22 hitpoints, so unless your 7th level barb is way stronger than I am used to (2d6 + 5 str + 3 rage + 1 magic = 16 damage, so 2 hits to take out)....they are killing 1 per round (you will get a crit or 2 but also a few misses which should roughly balance out), so 12 rounds to take out a dozen. A fighter could take out 2 in a round with action surge, then its back to 1 per round.

Now if you want to say a fireball softens them up so that the fighter only needs 1 hit to kill, I could see that, but expecting a fireball to hit all 12 is of course a major question mark, depends on how they are split up and scattered.

I can respect the notion that like a handful of CR 1/2s isn't going to move the needle much.... but 30!!!!??? That's no longer a minor little threat, that's a pretty big resource drain if the party doesn't get a chance to area bomb them to death.

 

[el-remmen]

I'm literally telling you the rules on encounter difficulty expressly tell you to take into account subjective things like the above.

You're finding encounter difficulty useless because you're the one not taking those subjective considerations into account when you're making your calculations.

Which was my whole point to begin with remember? RAW encounter difficulty is not just a mathematical calculation. There are subjective decisions to be made by a living breathing DM to take into account all the above.

Which is more work and not significantly more informative than just eyeballing it, which is what I do and is my ultimate point.