D&D 5E It's official, WOTC hates Rangers (Tasha's version of Favored Foe is GARBAGE)

[Asisreo]

Beasts were probably built to not be broken in the hands of PCs. Druids, Rangers, and summoners would have access to them.

But they weren't balanced to be used as alternate attack vectors. CR 1/4 has attacks below even a level 1 PC.+3 to hit and 4-5 damage per round?

Take into account the adjustments that the majority of these attack vectors get. You're assuming the base CR 1/4 type, which is already slightly flawed since most creatures aren't as beefy but they hit much harder. A wolf, for instance, doesn't have 36-49 HP with an AC 13, but they do have a Bite attack at +4 to hit and 7 damage. According to the list of features, Pack Tactics gives them an effective +5 to hit, meaning their offensive CR is 1 while their defensive CR is less than 0. This averages to 1/4 being the closest CR when the calc is done (I can show the math if you're curious but its a bit confusing).

When they become a beast's companion, they get an automatic +2 to-hit and damage as well as +2 AC and a minimum of 12 HP. If we were to recalculate this Wolf companion CR, it would be CR 1. That's roughly the strength of a 3rd level character anyways. If a Beastmaster keeps the wolf's low defensive abilities in mind, they can actually do quite well as a whole pokemon-esque puppetmaster character.

I want to address your other point, but it will take a bit of time so I'll get back to it.

 

[Minigiant]

Take into account the adjustments that the majority of these attack vectors get. You're assuming the base CR 1/4 type, which is already slightly flawed since most creatures aren't as beefy but they hit much harder. A wolf, for instance, doesn't have 36-49 HP with an AC 13, but they do have a Bite attack at +4 to hit and 7 damage. According to the list of features, Pack Tactics gives them an effective +5 to hit, meaning their offensive CR is 1 while their defensive CR is less than 0. This averages to 1/4 being the closest CR when the calc is done (I can show the math if you're curious but its a bit confusing).

When they become a beast's companion, they get an automatic +2 to-hit and damage as well as +2 AC and a minimum of 12 HP. If we were to recalculate this Wolf companion CR, it would be CR 1. That's roughly the strength of a 3rd level character anyways. If a Beastmaster keeps the wolf's low defensive abilities in mind, they can actually do quite well as a whole pokemon-esque puppetmaster character.

I want to address your other point, but it will take a bit of time so I'll get back to it.

But you are assuming use of one of the best beasts in the books.
What about the boar and it adjusted +5, 1d6+3 damage, and 13 AC?
or a poisonous snake an it's +7, 3damage (DC10 2d4 poison) and 15 AC?
or a hawk with +7, 3damage and 17 AC?

None of them are tanks and some are barely damage dealers. That's the point. One size all only lets you run beastmasters one way. But there are 4-5 popular fantasies for beastmasters. Simply saying take a CR 1/4 beast and run with it doesn't work. The beasts weren't made for that/ Thisiswhy beastmaster is known forbeing the most disappointing subclass and why Tasha's is coming out with beasts designed for the subclass.

I don't know how WOTC thought they could get away with only dedicating 5 pages to ranger in 5e.

 

[Minigiant]

No. Beast of the XYZ can do that job, with one subclass.
now, that subclass should have things that the current one doesn’t, but that doesn’t mean the above is any less true.

I'd agrue that they'd still need more than 3 beasts. The Beast of the Earth is no tank for those who want that and you lose a lot of ultility.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Why is it that a fighter that decides to speck into dual-wielding daggers or a paladin going full ranged-combat are penalized for doing so? Why is a wizard that refuses to learn spells of their highest level hurt by their choices?

Because they're purposefully choosing things outside of the optimal route. Sometimes a wizard wants to double back on a spell of a previous level because they just learned how good Shield is or the paladin wants to have been chosen to be a holy warrior with their bow. That's fine, but they're seriously undermining their combat capabilities. The same can be said for beastmaster's companions.

You don't really think a player that takes a dog (mastiff) should really do as good as one that took a wolf, do you? Hyenas are scavengers. They'll fight and they can hold their own, but they don't prefer fighting unless they must, even in packs. Such an animal should be weaker in active combat than a wolf.

And yeah, it has to do with balance, too. Gnolls frequently have hyenas as pets so they need to make sure hyenas aren't too strong when a party faces those hyenas with their gnoll masters.

I think I need to disagree with you here on a few points.

Yes, if the ranger picked something like a cat and we compared it to a lion, we'd expect a major difference, but Hyena's, Mastiff's and Wolves are not that dissimilar.

The average's for a Male English Mastiff (the breed shown) are between 160 lbs and 230 lbs, and they are between 2.25 ft and 3 ft tall at the shoulder.

The average grey wolf? 66 to 180 lbs and standing 2.2 to 2.7 ft tall at the shoulder. In other words, the smallest mastiff is still nearly as big as the largest wolf.

And the Spotted Hyena? 98 to 140 lbs and 2.3 to 3 ft tall. So, lighter than the biggest wolves, but heavier than the lightest and bigger than a wolf.

And compounding this, the Hyena has one of the strongest bites in the world. And, is in fact, a hunter as well as a scavenger.
Meanwhile, let us look at some stats in the game.

Wolf Ac 13 Hp 11 Bite +4 for 2d4+2 (7) and potential prone and Keen hearing and smell
Mastiff Ac 12 Hp 5 Bite +3 for 1d6+1 (4) and potential prone and keen hearing and smell
Hyena Ac 11 Hp 5 Bite +2 for 1d6 (3)


This is... kind of egregious. The wolf has +2 AC, double hp, double the attack hit and damage and the hyena is denied keen senses for some reason? Because just about every canine and feline gets that.

And while you can try and point out things about wild animals and trained behavior... we are talking about a trained beast companion. None of that should matter. And hyena's being companions to gnolls... yeah, they should be, but they suck so badly that no one I know really bothers with them in combat. I mean, they do less damage than a goat, and are less likely to land a successful hit.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I have tried to write somewhat standardised beast companion profiles but it is a lot of work.

Another thing that also bugs me that how the rules are written it limits you to very small pool of rather weedy animals, which sure, will get stat buffs, but are still those animals. I'd like the higher level rangers be able to tame more powerful beasts, sabretooth tigers and cave bears in mid-levels, some magical creatures at the epic levels.

 

[Asisreo]

But you are assuming use of one of the best beasts in the books.
What about the boar and it adjusted +5, 1d6+3 damage, and 13 AC?
or a poisonous snake an it's +7, 3damage (DC10 2d4 poison) and 15 AC?
or a hawk with +7, 3damage and 17 AC?

Again, why shouldn't you?

The game can't be balanced around if the players chose a weak option. A Paladin that decides their main weapon is a net really doesn't garnish sympathy for me if they suddenly realize they aren't comparing to the Greatsword Fighter.

And the fact that there's actually a list of beasts disproves your "only one way" attitude. It's not like the Giant Crab, Giant Frog, Panther, Giant Poisonous Snake, Giant Wolf Spider, Giant Centipede, Giant Badger, Pteradon, and Wolf all have the same playstyle. These are great combat beasts for a reason, the CR is laid bare for anyone to see.

If a level 6 moon druid tries to be a combat owl and dies round 1, its their fault for choosing such a bad option when it would clearly and obviously not work out.

None of them are tanks and some are barely damage dealers. That's the point. One size all only lets you run beastmasters one way. But there are 4-5 popular fantasies for beastmasters. Simply saying take a CR 1/4 beast and run with it doesn't work. The beasts weren't made for that/ Thisiswhy beastmaster is known forbeing the most disappointing subclass and why Tasha's is coming out with beasts designed for the subclass.

If you want a tank, you take the Giant Crab with their 17 AC and 13 HP (at 3rd level). Not good enough for you? When it gets into melee, cast Fog Cloud centered on it. Incoming attacks have disadvantage and it can't be targeted by spells through sight while it happily attacks and grapples whoever they're fighting. Keeping them in the fog cloud and forcing them to basically attack the high AC crab. If it gets hurt, use Cure Wounds mid-battle or goodberry post battle. At level 7, order it to dodge as a bonus action for that sweet advantage on dex saves.

I don't know how WOTC thought they could get away with only dedicating 5 pages to ranger in 5e.

Bard, Barbarian, and Rogue of all classes only have 5 pages in the PHB dedicated to their class features and description as well.

Bards also started with 2 subclasses, is this not egregious since the bard is a more iconic figure with more fantasy representation? I don't think any more subclasses from the Ranger or Bard are needed, though having more is always nice to have.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Again, why shouldn't you?

The game can't be balanced around if the players chose a weak option. A Paladin that decides their main weapon is a net really doesn't garnish sympathy for me if they suddenly realize they aren't comparing to the Greatsword Fighter.

And the fact that there's actually a list of beasts disproves your "only one way" attitude. It's not like the Giant Crab, Giant Frog, Panther, Giant Poisonous Snake, Giant Wolf Spider, Giant Centipede, Giant Badger, Pteradon, and Wolf all have the same playstyle. These are great combat beasts for a reason, the CR is laid bare for anyone to see.

I guess you'll need to be more specific here, since the Giant Badger seems to just suck, best attack is for 6 damage (base damages is what I'll be using) and the HP and AC is terrible. Are you referring to that incredibly slow 10 ft burrow speed? That is a terrible choice.

Giant Poisonous snake is decent, still terrible AC and HP.

Giant Centipede looks like a worse version of Giant Poisonous Snake.

Giant Wolf spider.... also looks like a worse version of the Giant Poisonous Snake. I mean, you might maybe get a surpise round with spider climb and stealth, but at best you are looking at 11 damage on that same +3 to hit (pre-buff). And, I mean, lets stop and think this through for a second. Medium sized creature with a +7 stealth, by 5th level the Ranger themselves can easily match that stealth and with a longbow a hunter ranger could attack for +7 (1 point higher than the Spider post-buff) and deal 21.5 damage (hunter ranger colossus) from 150 ft away from stealth compared to the spiders chance at dealing 14. What is the benefit here?

Giant Frog, well, the restrain is a neat trick, but since it has a reach of 5ft and horrible AC it is just going to get killed fairly quickly. Plus, it has a terrible attack bonus to even land that hit. Also, 4 damage on a hit.

Giant Crab is a slightly better version of the frog, one of the few decent ACs, even if the hp is still very low. Also it just grapples, and has that same terrible attack bonus and 4 damage.

Panther same low ac, low hp, and their best move is the pounce which requires the enemy failing an easy strength check and taking 9 damage if they do.

If you want a tank, you take the Giant Crab with their 17 AC and 13 HP (at 3rd level). Not good enough for you? When it gets into melee, cast Fog Cloud centered on it. Incoming attacks have disadvantage and it can't be targeted by spells through sight while it happily attacks and grapples whoever they're fighting. Keeping them in the fog cloud and forcing them to basically attack the high AC crab. If it gets hurt, use Cure Wounds mid-battle or goodberry post battle. At level 7, order it to dodge as a bonus action for that sweet advantage on dex saves.

3rd level.

I am going to go forward with this assuming that the table has Heavy Obscurement count as blind even if you are within 5 ft of each other (not a guarantee, since I know at least one table where you can see things right next to you in heavy obscurement.)

So, you have spent a spell slot to give the crab advantage and the enemy disadvantage. I will grant, 17 ac with disadvanatage? That is going to be hard to hit. And the crab only has a +5 to hit, but it has advantage and +5 is good for 3rd level. It is dealing... 6 damage (post buff).

You are also using your concentration and have blinded every single one of your allies and yourself in the fog cloud. Oh, and since they both take actions, you need two turns to pull this off. During which time you've either put the crab up there, or the enemy as potentially run out of the fog cloud.

So, a spell, two turns, 6 damage if you hit and the chance that you have an enemy grappled.

Counter-point

Hunter Ranger, cast Ensnaring Strike on one turn, and attack the other turn.

That is one spell, over two turns with a longbow you might get 27.5 damage (2d8+6 from attacks, 2d8 from Colossus and 1d6 from Ensnaring strike) potential for the enemy to be restrained, and no de-buffs to you or your allies.

I quadrupled your damage, potentially gave a better debuff, and the ranger is just as safe since they are using a bow and not in melee with the enemy. This also means I might not need to use Cure Wounds, because the enemy can't hit what is out of range.


And this is the consistent problem. Play a different ranger, and you get many of the same capabilities, with fewer drawbacks and usually far superior damage. There is nothing to sell me on the theme of animal buddy.

 

[Lanefan]

3rd level.

I am going to go forward with this assuming that the table has Heavy Obscurement count as blind even if you are within 5 ft of each other (not a guarantee, since I know at least one table where you can see things right next to you in heavy obscurement.)

So, you have spent a spell slot to give the crab advantage and the enemy disadvantage. I will grant, 17 ac with disadvanatage? That is going to be hard to hit. And the crab only has a +5 to hit, but it has advantage and +5 is good for 3rd level. It is dealing... 6 damage (post buff).

You are also using your concentration and have blinded every single one of your allies and yourself in the fog cloud. Oh, and since they both take actions, you need two turns to pull this off. During which time you've either put the crab up there, or the enemy as potentially run out of the fog cloud.

A smart party would, as soon as the fog arrived, run out of the fog cloud and surround it in order to pick off any enemies that escape, while leaving the crab on its own to take care of business inside the fog.

 

[Asisreo]

I guess you'll need to be more specific here, since the Giant Badger seems to just suck, best attack is for 6 damage (base damages is what I'll be using) and the HP and AC is terrible. Are you referring to that incredibly slow 10 ft burrow speed? That is a terrible choice.

Giant Badger's Burrow Speed is slow, but it only needs to move however long and then burrow for the last 5-10 ft to be out of sight. In fact, attack-burrow round 1 then burrow-attack-burrow could possibly be a great pattern, especially for enemies with multiattack or when you're level 7 and can have them BA disengage (no attacking, though). 8 damage is better than what base ranger can do with a bow and arrow until level 4 but outpaces again at level 5. The to-hit is similar unless you take archery style which you very well might (though, defense isn't bad either). Plus, you can attack from over 150ft and not have disadvantage.

Giant Centipede looks like a worse version of Giant Poisonous Snake.

Until you notice the larger blindsight which pulls into the strategy I've mentioned and will go into greater detail in later.

Giant Wolf spider.... also looks like a worse version of the Giant Poisonous Snake. I mean, you might maybe get a surpise round with spider climb and stealth, but at best you are looking at 11 damage on that same +3 to hit (pre-buff). And, I mean, lets stop and think this through for a second. Medium sized creature with a +7 stealth, by 5th level the Ranger themselves can easily match that stealth and with a longbow a hunter ranger could attack for +7 (1 point higher than the Spider post-buff) and deal 21.5 damage (hunter ranger colossus) from 150 ft away from stealth compared to the spiders chance at dealing 14. What is the benefit here?

Their stealth, as a companion, is +9, which is higher than a Ranger could possibly get at that level save for Pass Without Trace, which the spider also benefits from.

The Wolf Spider should be looked at post-buff and with everything they have. Pre-buff spiders have nothing to do with the discussion. The Wolf Spider Ranger can deal 23.5 if they don't save and 20.5 if they do save.

Giant Frog, well, the restrain is a neat trick, but since it has a reach of 5ft and horrible AC it is just going to get killed fairly quickly. Plus, it has a terrible attack bonus to even land that hit. Also, 4 damage on a hit.

It'll probably die, but just get a new or different creature if it does. This is also one of, if not THE most reliable ways to restrain someone at early levels. The 6 damage is excusable but it can also swallow small enemies (which might not be all that uncommon in typical play cough*goblins*cough.

Panther same low ac, low hp, and their best move is the pounce which requires the enemy failing an easy strength check and taking 9 damage if they do.

They take 13 damage if they fail. Also, they don't actually have to fail the DC 12 strength check to be BA attacked, they just have to be prone. If the fighter decides to prone the enemy, the Panther can capitalize. If the Wizard uses a spell that forces the enemy prone, the Panther can capitalize.

3rd level.

3rd level is when you get the subclass, though.

You are also using your concentration and have blinded every single one of your allies and yourself in the fog cloud.

Here's the cool part, hehe.

You and your party don't get disadvantage when you cast fog cloud on your enemy. You can't see your enemy, true, but they can't see you. All attack rolls are neutral at this point. All attack rolls except for the ones between the crab and enemy. The crab can see the enemy, so they are given advantage while the enemy has disadvantage against them.

Ready for the super-duper fun part? Hehehe, here we go.

If you actually put the edge of Fog Cloud targetting the grappling Crab but not the enemy, you get exactly the same situation except that the enemy has disadvantage on everyone while everyone else has neutral attacks. I'll give anyone a heart eyes reaction if they can tell me why this happens, its not too hard, though.

And if you're level 7, you can order the crab to help as a bonus action and turn up the damage by alot (maybe the Paladin can put some extra oomph in their hit or the Barbarian doesn't need to go reckless this turn).

 

[Chaosmancer]

A smart party would, as soon as the fog arrived, run out of the fog cloud and surround it in order to pick off any enemies that escape, while leaving the crab on its own to take care of business inside the fog.

True, but this is still the same criticism that comes to Darkness-Devil Sight. You are limiting vision not only for the enemy, but for your side as well.

And, abandoning the battle and leaving it to a 6 to 8 damage per round crab.... that is going to be a drag.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Giant Badger's Burrow Speed is slow, but it only needs to move however long and then burrow for the last 5-10 ft to be out of sight. In fact, attack-burrow round 1 then burrow-attack-burrow could possibly be a great pattern, especially for enemies with multiattack or when you're level 7 and can have them BA disengage (no attacking, though). 8 damage is better than what base ranger can do with a bow and arrow until level 4 but outpaces again at level 5. The to-hit is similar unless you take archery style which you very well might (though, defense isn't bad either). Plus, you can attack from over 150ft and not have disadvantage.

Even if you assume that burrowing down 5ft when you fill a 5 ft cube makes you immune to attacks (which is not guaranteed) you still get hit with attacks of opportunity, meaning that until 7th level you are moving up, attacking, then giving them a free attack. With bad AC and bad HP... this is a bad plan.

Also... really? Base Ranger with bow and arrow at level 3 is potentially doing 1d8+3, or 7.5 on average. Right there with the Badger.... except that any level 3 ranger who is not a Beastmaster has another subclass, and almost all of them offer a way to add a 1d8 or 1d6 to their damage.... and you can potentially use Hunter's Mark witha bow and arrow, which you can't with a Badger, meaning that you are looking at closer to 2d8+1d6+3 or 15.5, nearly double the badger's output.

Also, while, yes you can technically command your badger to move over 150 ft to attack at a distance, this likely takes at least 6 turns, meaning that this only works for ambushes, and if you are ambushing more than a single target.... dead badger. Additionally, you give verbal commands, meaning that the badger has to be able to hear you, so you can't command it to attack by havinging it burrow up to the enemies, because under ten ft of dirt, it can't hear you. (All of this assumes RAW, which I acknowledge, RAW is stupid)

Until you notice the larger blindsight which pulls into the strategy I've mentioned and will go into greater detail in later.
Their stealth, as a companion, is +9, which is higher than a Ranger could possibly get at that level save for Pass Without Trace, which the spider also benefits from.

The Wolf Spider should be looked at post-buff and with everything they have. Pre-buff spiders have nothing to do with the discussion. The Wolf Spider Ranger can deal 23.5 if they don't save and 20.5 if they do save.

How the actual heck do you imagine those numbers happening?

Assuming a +6 bonus to the damage, which is base 1d6+1 and 2d6 that only gets me to 17.5. Which tells me that you are double dipping into the ranger bonus, and applying it to the piercing and to the poison, which is not how those bonuses work. Or, maybe you are counting both attacks, which gets me 2d6+14+4d6= 35... so no, you are applying to damage boost twice, which is not how the ability works.

So, 17.5 for a single attack, 35 for a double. Not bad... except that 4d6 of that (14) is coming from poison damage, the most common immunity in the game, so we can assume that against a lot of high level foes you are actually dealing 10.5 and 21 damage.

And, that requires being 17th level at a minimum, and by that point the ranger should have at least a +3 bow, right? So let's compare the Hunter Ranger. They would deal 3d8+1d6+16= 33 damage I'm only two points behind the spider who gets two failed con saves from something not immune to poison at level 17. By doing nothing except the same bog-standard approach I had at level 5.

Oh, and let us not forget that by level 17 your spider would have 68 hp. An Adult Red dragon is a CR 17 fight. It does an average of 58 damage a round. So, high likelyhood of it dying in a single round of combat at that level.

It'll probably die, but just get a new or different creature if it does. This is also one of, if not THE most reliable ways to restrain someone at early levels. The 6 damage is excusable but it can also swallow small enemies (which might not be all that uncommon in typical play cough*goblins*cough.

And this is one big problem I have with these rangers. You are going in expecting them to die early and often, and you just keep getting a new one each day. That is not the class fantasy of this archetype.

They take 13 damage if they fail. Also, they don't actually have to fail the DC 12 strength check to be BA attacked, they just have to be prone. If the fighter decides to prone the enemy, the Panther can capitalize. If the Wizard uses a spell that forces the enemy prone, the Panther can capitalize.

So, if the fighter wastes on of their attacks to shove prone, then the panther can deal an extra 7 damage... less than the fighter likely would have done by just using their attack.

Sure, there are ways to have a party set-up where that happens, but a plan that involves that much help from other characters is not reliable. That should be a bonus on top of what you can do, not your go to plan.

3rd level is when you get the subclass, though.
Here's the cool part, hehe.

You and your party don't get disadvantage when you cast fog cloud on your enemy. You can't see your enemy, true, but they can't see you. All attack rolls are neutral at this point. All attack rolls except for the ones between the crab and enemy. The crab can see the enemy, so they are given advantage while the enemy has disadvantage against them.

This is a hotly contested and often houseruled interpretation, especially since it makes those spells and effects that use heavy obscurement useless. So, big ol' "Subject to DM approval" sign right here.

(At my own tables, we have ruled that if everyone is blind, everyone has disadvantage)

Ready for the super-duper fun part? Hehehe, here we go.

If you actually put the edge of Fog Cloud targetting the grappling Crab but not the enemy, you get exactly the same situation except that the enemy has disadvantage on everyone while everyone else has neutral attacks. I'll give anyone a heart eyes reaction if they can tell me why this happens, its not too hard, though.

Huh?

If the edge of the fog cloud is on the crab, but not the enemy? So, you want to position this cloud so the crab is obscured and nothing else is? That does nothing to the enemy attacks against anyone except the crab. Unless you are planning on stepping in and out of the fog cloud?

Which, okay, fine, you have a small possibility of diving in and out of the Fog Cloud and making it hard for this one enemy... until they ready an attack to hit you as soon as you exit the cloud. Those getting you when you aren't in the cloud. Though, I'd probably just work on killing the crab and hit you with an attack of opportunity when you left. Since that is two attacks instead of one.

Also, if you have a single enemy vs the entire party, you are in bad news territory for the enemy anyways. You have to be well above the parties CR for that to be a challenge typically.

And if you're level 7, you can order the crab to help as a bonus action and turn up the damage by alot (maybe the Paladin can put some extra oomph in their hit or the Barbarian doesn't need to go reckless this turn).

I love this. Because it is just so... I don't quite know.

See, at 7th level you have gotten the privilege on using your bonus action on your turn to give the help action.

At first level my Human ranger could take Ritual Caster and get a familiar who can do the exact same thing for free. Or I could pick it up at 4th or 8th. Or I could just see if the party already has someone with that spell. And then I can just be a different subclass.