D&D 5E It's official, WOTC hates Rangers (Tasha's version of Favored Foe is GARBAGE)

[Asisreo]

Even if you assume that burrowing down 5ft when you fill a 5 ft cube makes you immune to attacks (which is not guaranteed) you still get hit with attacks of opportunity, meaning that until 7th level you are moving up, attacking, then giving them a free attack. With bad AC and bad HP... this is a bad plan.

See, but they don't take AoO. If they burrow under the ground 5ft from being in reach, they are still 5 ft from the target because of how diagonals work in 5e. They never left reach so they don't incur AoO. However, since they're out of Line of Sight and under full cover from the sand and earth, they can't be targeted either.

How the actual heck do you imagine those numbers happening?

Assuming a +6 bonus to the damage, which is base 1d6+1 and 2d6 that only gets me to 17.5. Which tells me that you are double dipping into the ranger bonus, and applying it to the piercing and to the poison, which is not how those bonuses work. Or, maybe you are counting both attacks, which gets me 2d6+14+4d6= 35... so no, you are applying to damage boost twice, which is not how the ability works.

Ahem.

If they fail the save, the damage equals 1d6+1+2d6+3 at level 5. That's 14.5 from the Wolf Spider, and I didn't add two bonuses for that, the prof bonus is only added once. However, the Ranger himself gets to attack at level 5 as well. This damage will likely be 1d10+4 which equals 9.5 damage. Turns out, they actually do more damage than I said, doing a total damage of 24 with absolutely no spells used. So yeah, they're pretty good.

You're right about poison damage being shown resisted alot, though while its common when counting monsters as if they hold equal weight, alot of those monsters don't have these resistances unless its an undead or fiend campaign. Neither goblins, kobolds, orcs, beasts, humans, elves, most fey, most monstrosities, most dragons, and most abberations. In fact, even celestials can be susceptible to poison damage. The only two celestials in the MM that are immune or resistant are the Unicorn or Solar. Actually, to my surprise, even oozes take poison damage as normal. The reason why fiends, elementals, constructs, and undead have these resistances and immunities make total sense and should be expected by the Ranger.

Though, interestingly, Genies are elementals that aren't immune or resistant to poison. Neither are Magmins for some reason.

And this is one big problem I have with these rangers. You are going in expecting them to die early and often, and you just keep getting a new one each day. That is not the class fantasy of this archetype.

Its my fantasy. Like I said, if a player expects a permenant totally regular beast companion, they should talk with their DM since balancing a class based around having a second body that almost never dies is extremely hard since a party would just buff it and send it into battle with very little risk. Constructs work because obviously they can be repaired and magical companions like familiars or the new Primal Beasts can be "resummoned" but when they're just a beast they befriended, they must run the risk of dying during battle. As such, they should be replaceable and the beastmaster should not hold back on their combat beasts. If they die but it would be really inconvenient, the Ranger can Cure Wounds on them and bring them back to life. Yes, you're allowed to upcast your Cure Wounds.

This is a hotly contested and often houseruled interpretation, especially since it makes those spells and effects that use heavy obscurement useless. So, big ol' "Subject to DM approval" sign right here.

(At my own tables, we have ruled that if everyone is blind, everyone has disadvantage)

So are criticals on ability checks. Doesn't change what the text says.

That said, that houserule makes it easier on the Ranger's strategy anyways so it doesn't actually matter how you houserule that interaction. It benefits the Ranger regardless.

Huh?

If the edge of the fog cloud is on the crab, but not the enemy? So, you want to position this cloud so the crab is obscured and nothing else is? That does nothing to the enemy attacks against anyone except the crab. Unless you are planning on stepping in and out of the fog cloud?

Can't figure it out? That's okay. There's alot of moving parts at this point.

I've already explained how the crab not being seen gives advantage to it but disadvantage to the enemy, but why does the enemy get disadvantage on everyone else's attacks.

You're technically correct when you say they aren't affected, at least in melee. However, if the enemy is not in melee with anyone in your party other than the crab, they must make a ranged attack. The ranged attack is being made 5ft from a hostile enemy, so its at disadvantage no matter who they target. Meanwhile, the party gets to assault them with their own ranged attacks.

Also, if you have a single enemy vs the entire party, you are in bad news territory for the enemy anyways. You have to be well above the parties CR for that to be a challenge typically.

Good thing the Crab can do this to two enemies at the same time. Might require a bit more setup or Bestial Fury, but it doesn't have to be a 1 v. Party encounter.

See, at 7th level you have gotten the privilege on using your bonus action on your turn to give the help action.

At first level my Human ranger could take Ritual Caster and get a familiar who can do the exact same thing for free. Or I could pick it up at 4th or 8th. Or I could just see if the party already has someone with that spell. And then I can just be a different subclass.

Don't isolate the abilities. I didn't make that whole post to say you only get Help as a Bonus Action. Its something you get on top of what you already have. Anyone can get rituals, but they're special on a wizard because they get that on top of what they already have with no extra investment necessary.

A feat tax is expensive and going out of your way for only the Help action attached to a 1 HP familiar that can't attack. A Beastmaster Ranger gets this at level 7 but grabbing Magic Initiate Sanctuary to make your beast even more difficult to hit in an encounter once they've done what they need to.

 

[Chaosmancer]

See, but they don't take AoO. If they burrow under the ground 5ft from being in reach, they are still 5 ft from the target because of how diagonals work in 5e. They never left reach so they don't incur AoO. However, since they're out of Line of Sight and under full cover from the sand and earth, they can't be targeted either.

That seems to be a DM interpretation to me, but if they are behind total cover then the enemy can just walk away anyways, because the Badger can't see them. So, at best, it prevents your badger from dying, but does nothing to the enemy who just moves away to target other individuals.

Ahem.

If they fail the save, the damage equals 1d6+1+2d6+3 at level 5. That's 14.5 from the Wolf Spider, and I didn't add two bonuses for that, the prof bonus is only added once. However, the Ranger himself gets to attack at level 5 as well. This damage will likely be 1d10+4 which equals 9.5 damage. Turns out, they actually do more damage than I said, doing a total damage of 24 with absolutely no spells used. So yeah, they're pretty good.

You're right about poison damage being shown resisted alot, though while its common when counting monsters as if they hold equal weight, alot of those monsters don't have these resistances unless its an undead or fiend campaign. Neither goblins, kobolds, orcs, beasts, humans, elves, most fey, most monstrosities, most dragons, and most abberations. In fact, even celestials can be susceptible to poison damage. The only two celestials in the MM that are immune or resistant are the Unicorn or Solar. Actually, to my surprise, even oozes take poison damage as normal. The reason why fiends, elementals, constructs, and undead have these resistances and immunities make total sense and should be expected by the Ranger.

Though, interestingly, Genies are elementals that aren't immune or resistant to poison. Neither are Magmins for some reason.

1d10+4? So you are using a Longsword maybe? Possibly a heavy crossbow.

But okay, let's take that as a Longsword and strength ranger. That means I can hit for... actually, no let's just do it one-handed because the dueling style is better than two handing it. So, sword and board ranger, which means I can just use a rapier and be a dex ranger still. That is 3d8+12 for 25.5. Also absolutely no spells used and better than your spider. Especially since there is no save for half or poison immunity, and since I'm dueling I can have an AC of 19 trivially, likely 18 though.

Its my fantasy. Like I said, if a player expects a permenant totally regular beast companion, they should talk with their DM since balancing a class based around having a second body that almost never dies is extremely hard since a party would just buff it and send it into battle with very little risk. Constructs work because obviously they can be repaired and magical companions like familiars or the new Primal Beasts can be "resummoned" but when they're just a beast they befriended, they must run the risk of dying during battle. As such, they should be replaceable and the beastmaster should not hold back on their combat beasts. If they die but it would be really inconvenient, the Ranger can Cure Wounds on them and bring them back to life. Yes, you're allowed to upcast your Cure Wounds.

What does upcasting Cure Wounds have to do with anything?

I mean, you can have fun with what you have fun with man, but low AC and a requirement to be in melee means that most of these beasts will end up just draining party resources, and not contributing much damage or anything else to the fight that you couldn't find another way. Especially if we assume a "cure wounds" tax to keep them alive.

So are criticals on ability checks. Doesn't change what the text says.

That said, that houserule makes it easier on the Ranger's strategy anyways so it doesn't actually matter how you houserule that interaction. It benefits the Ranger regardless.

You can say that, but you presented your first point as though it could not be challenged, and I know that is something that is very commonly challenged. Dismiss it if you want, but I see that as important to the discussion of how badly you may end up messing your own party up.

Can't figure it out? That's okay. There's alot of moving parts at this point.

I've already explained how the crab not being seen gives advantage to it but disadvantage to the enemy, but why does the enemy get disadvantage on everyone else's attacks.

You're technically correct when you say they aren't affected, at least in melee. However, if the enemy is not in melee with anyone in your party other than the crab, they must make a ranged attack. The ranged attack is being made 5ft from a hostile enemy, so its at disadvantage no matter who they target. Meanwhile, the party gets to assault them with their own ranged attacks.

So, you are relying on the party having a lot of ranged attacks, and casting a spell that only targets your own creature.

Question? If you have that many good ranged attacks... why not just kite they enemy and have a ranger who does superior damage? Or cast a spell that will aid in restraining, giving everyone advantage, like Ensnaring strike or entangle? I mean, you are relying on Fog Cloud as is.

Good thing the Crab can do this to two enemies at the same time. Might require a bit more setup or Bestial Fury, but it doesn't have to be a 1 v. Party encounter.

Yeah, a lot more set-up and potentially a level 11 ability.

You really don't sell these plans very well.

Don't isolate the abilities. I didn't make that whole post to say you only get Help as a Bonus Action. Its something you get on top of what you already have. Anyone can get rituals, but they're special on a wizard because they get that on top of what they already have with no extra investment necessary.

A feat tax is expensive and going out of your way for only the Help action attached to a 1 HP familiar that can't attack. A Beastmaster Ranger gets this at level 7 but grabbing Magic Initiate Sanctuary to make your beast even more difficult to hit in an encounter once they've done what they need to.

Well, to start with, Sanctuary isn't a ritual spell, so that would be illegal.

Also, who cares if the familiar can't attack, neither can your beast if you want to use the Help Action.

And the reason I isolated the abilities is because it is generally agreed that the beast's damage falls well under the Ranger's, meaning that at a certain point, your best option is to get advantage from help constantly... at which point your entire subclass is just a beefy familiar who is likely too large to scout properly.


Look, I get you like it, but these points have been beaten to death for years. I doubt you are really going to present something that actually makes them worthwhile.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'd agrue that they'd still need more than 3 beasts. The Beast of the Earth is no tank for those who want that and you lose a lot of ultility.

Sure. I’d curate about a dozen beasts in that style.

Of course, I’d also add similar critters to familiars, and give them the ability to give you a bonus while in a state of magical focus that allows them to help you with out of combat stuff more, like a familiar should, and maybe even find a way to let them help your spellcasting directly.

 

[Lanefan]

True, but this is still the same criticism that comes to Darkness-Devil Sight. You are limiting vision not only for the enemy, but for your side as well.

And, abandoning the battle and leaving it to a 6 to 8 damage per round crab.... that is going to be a drag.

Sure it is, but as it's a relatively risk-free drag for the PCs it's well worth doing.

Huh?

If the edge of the fog cloud is on the crab, but not the enemy? So, you want to position this cloud so the crab is obscured and nothing else is? That does nothing to the enemy attacks against anyone except the crab. Unless you are planning on stepping in and out of the fog cloud?

I read it as positioning the fog cloud such that - as far as possible - the PCs are outside of it, the crab is on the edge of it (half in, half out) and the enemies are inside it. In a confined space where the crab is in effect holding the front line this would be possible; outdoors it'd be really difficult to pull off; if you could pull it off the PCs could then just blast missile fire into the fog at random - they can see the crab well enough to miss it, and it's free damage against any enemies they hit.

 

[Minigiant]

Sure. I’d curate about a dozen beasts in that style.

Of course, I’d also add similar critters to familiars, and give them the ability to give you a bonus while in a state of magical focus that allows them to help you with out of combat stuff more, like a familiar should, and maybe even find a way to let them help your spellcasting directly.

I think doing beast spirits by climate/terrain would be better

• Beast of the Arctic (tanky swimming land beast ala polar bear/walrus)
• Beast of the Sea
• Beast of the Desert (fast striker with burrowing)
• Beast of the Forest (current beast of the land minus swim)
• Beast of the Grassland (a large mount)
• Beast of the Mountain (mean goaty beast)
• Beast of the Swamp (snake/croc hybrid)
• Beast of the Dark (poison and darkness)

Same for familiars based on each outside type (abberation, celestial, elemental, fey, fiend, etc)

 

[Asisreo]

1d10+4? So you are using a Longsword maybe? Possibly a heavy crossbow.

But okay, let's take that as a Longsword and strength ranger. That means I can hit for... actually, no let's just do it one-handed because the dueling style is better than two handing it. So, sword and board ranger, which means I can just use a rapier and be a dex ranger still. That is 3d8+12 for 25.5. Also absolutely no spells used and better than your spider. Especially since there is no save for half or poison immunity, and since I'm dueling I can have an AC of 19 trivially, likely 18 though.

I was assuming a heavy crossbow with archery fighting style, but if we want to maximize damage at absolutely all costs for the Ranger, I'll use the Two-Weapon Fighting Style. The Ranger himself now does 2d6+8 damage, which turns into 15. 15+14.5 is 29.5 damage, still outdamaging the strength Ranger. Even better, if they fail the save, they do 26 damage, which is still stronger than the Sword and Board Ranger.

I mean, you can have fun with what you have fun with man, but low AC and a requirement to be in melee means that most of these beasts will end up just draining party resources, and not contributing much damage or anything else to the fight that you couldn't find another way. Especially if we assume a "cure wounds" tax to keep them alive.

They do contribute damage and, likely, contributes an extra HP pool that enemies will use their actions on to down them. If they don't, great, keep hitting them with your beast. If they do, the beast will take the damage and only minimally reduce the DPR of the entire team.

For instance, if the heavy crossbow Ranger (the first one I used), had their Wolf Spider setup doing 24 damage in a round and the enemy decides to target the Wolf Spider. They've done 20 damage that could've hit the wizard or cleric or Paladin. If they down them, oh no! Now the Ranger is doing 15 damage now without HM. They've used up likely a whole turn to reduce the DPR of the entire party by 9. If they instead focused their efforts on the Ranger himself, the Paladin, the Wizard, or the Cleric, he could have reduced the DPR by a whole 20-30 damage a round.

So, you are relying on the party having a lot of ranged attacks, and casting a spell that only targets your own creature.

Question? If you have that many good ranged attacks... why not just kite they enemy and have a ranger who does superior damage? Or cast a spell that will aid in restraining, giving everyone advantage, like Ensnaring strike or entangle? I mean, you are relying on Fog Cloud as is.

Answer: Because the enemy may also have good Ranged Attacks. At this level, most enemies should have decent ranged options that at least threaten the squishier backliners. A party doesn't even need good ranged options. Even if they are doing much more damage using Melee attacks, the safety of the Ranged Attacks make using lesser-damage Ranged Attacks much more efficient. If your party is extremely melee-dependent, one of them can prone them to give everyone advantage on the enemy again.

Also, the Ranger doesn't get Entangle.

Yeah, a lot more set-up and potentially a level 11 ability.

You really don't sell these plans very well.

Not selling anything to you since you are so adamant about the beastmaster even though its clear you probably never played one to their full potential. I'm selling it to those people that are on the fence and are seriously considering playing it but don't want to be the butt of jokes by a couple of internet commentors.

Well, to start with, Sanctuary isn't a ritual spell, so that would be illegal.

Also, who cares if the familiar can't attack, neither can your beast if you want to use the Help Action.

And the reason I isolated the abilities is because it is generally agreed that the beast's damage falls well under the Ranger's, meaning that at a certain point, your best option is to get advantage from help constantly... at which point your entire subclass is just a beefy familiar who is likely too large to scout properly.


Look, I get you like it, but these points have been beaten to death for years. I doubt you are really going to present something that actually makes them worthwhile.

These points have never been carefully scrutinized and I'm willing to do so.

I've done the math and the Beastmaster's damage regularly outdamages the majority of Ranger builds repeatedly.

Getting the Help Action is not the best part of a beastmaster. They really don't need it to be good at all, its just a nice bonus.

Even if your Sword and Board Ranger actually did more damage than the Wolf Spider TWF Ranger (which it doesn't even if the pass the save), they still get an extra pool of HP and the means to spread their damage across 2 bodies in separate locations.

So no, Find Familiar is not a replacement for a beastmaster's companion, and most other Rangers do not have better damage than the Beastmaster.

Also, I grabbed Magic Initiate to use Sanctuary, so its not illegal.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think doing beast spirits by climate/terrain would be better

• Beast of the Arctic (tanky swimming land beast ala polar bear/walrus)
• Beast of the Sea
• Beast of the Desert (fast striker with burrowing)
• Beast of the Forest (current beast of the land minus swim)
• Beast of the Grassland (a large mount)
• Beast of the Mountain (mean goaty beast)
• Beast of the Swamp (snake/croc hybrid)
• Beast of the Dark (poison and darkness)

Same for familiars based on each outside type (abberation, celestial, elemental, fey, fiend, etc)

That might work, as as I can, as a player (when that happens), say that the arctic beast is a Kodiak or other brown bear.

Maybe just name them by role. Guardian Spirit is a tank, Pack Spirit is like a wolf with pact tactics and knock down, Scout Spirit is your hawk (which can still attack. If I choose that I’m playing a falconer, and the fantasy there is very much to send my falcon at my enemy’s eyes), etc.

And then allow some light variation, like allow most of them to trade their normal speed for a swim speed.

there are changes I’d make to the subclass as well, but the subclass would work fine with just a suite of new companion options.

 

[Minigiant]

That might work, as as I can, as a player (when that happens), say that the arctic beast is a Kodiak or other brown bear.

Maybe just name them by role. Guardian Spirit is a tank, Pack Spirit is like a wolf with pact tactics and knock down, Scout Spirit is your hawk (which can still attack. If I choose that I’m playing a falconer, and the fantasy there is very much to send my falcon at my enemy’s eyes), etc.

And then allow some light variation, like allow most of them to trade their normal speed for a swim speed.

there are changes I’d make to the subclass as well, but the subclass would work fine with just a suite of new companion options.

Role might be cools as well. That's how 4e did it sort of. 4e did the bear, boar, cat, horse, lizard, raptor, serpent, simian , spider and wolf. That works out to

• Charger Spirit (for board, goats, sheep)
• Guardian Spirit (for tanky bears, apes, n stuff)
• Pack Spirit (wolves, dogs, and velociraptors)
• Scout Spirit (utility birds, bats and insects)
• Runner Spirit (mount spirit)
• Stalker spirit (big cats and spiders that gank then flee)
• Water spirit (Crocs and stuff)

That gets most of the Beastmaster fantasies if Swarmkeeper takes swarms.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Role might be cools as well. That's how 4e did it sort of. 4e did the bear, boar, cat, horse, lizard, raptor, serpent, simian , spider and wolf. That works out to

• Charger Spirit (for board, goats, sheep)
• Guardian Spirit (for tanky bears, apes, n stuff)
• Pack Spirit (wolves, dogs, and velociraptors)
• Scout Spirit (utility birds, bats and insects)
• Runner Spirit (mount spirit)
• Stalker spirit (big cats and spiders that gank then flee)
• Water spirit (Crocs and stuff)

That gets most of the Beastmaster fantasies if Swarmkeeper takes swarms.

Yeah, I think that would work, and off the wall stuff could be independent subclasses like the swarmkeeper and the drakewarden.

I am currently working on a Dragoon Scout that gets a horse and manuevers, but not because we need a separate subclass for mounted rangers. It's more about supporting mounted archers as a concept with more than just a homebrew feat. I may end up ditching it in favor of new battlemaster manuevers and maybe a fighting style that gives a bonus when you have another ally within 5ft of you when you attack.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I was assuming a heavy crossbow with archery fighting style, but if we want to maximize damage at absolutely all costs for the Ranger, I'll use the Two-Weapon Fighting Style. The Ranger himself now does 2d6+8 damage, which turns into 15. 15+14.5 is 29.5 damage, still outdamaging the strength Ranger. Even better, if they fail the save, they do 26 damage, which is still stronger than the Sword and Board Ranger.

5th level right?

So, if I take the feat instead of the +1, I get 4d8+9 which is 27. If I am a human or wait til level 8, then I can do 4d8+12 which is 30 and back to being higher than the beast.

So, dual-wielding with the spider attacking is the only combo that has a competitive chance, and it is a rather small window, and still relying in part on poison damage.

Also, we haven't brought it up yet, but in the PHB and DMG, there is no way to give your beast magical damage, meaning that after 5th level the chances of dealing half damage increase significantly.

They do contribute damage and, likely, contributes an extra HP pool that enemies will use their actions on to down them. If they don't, great, keep hitting them with your beast. If they do, the beast will take the damage and only minimally reduce the DPR of the entire team.

For instance, if the heavy crossbow Ranger (the first one I used), had their Wolf Spider setup doing 24 damage in a round and the enemy decides to target the Wolf Spider. They've done 20 damage that could've hit the wizard or cleric or Paladin. If they down them, oh no! Now the Ranger is doing 15 damage now without HM. They've used up likely a whole turn to reduce the DPR of the entire party by 9. If they instead focused their efforts on the Ranger himself, the Paladin, the Wizard, or the Cleric, he could have reduced the DPR by a whole 20-30 damage a round.

Sure, "Beast as meat bag" isn't bad for the party, but considering it is an 8 hour ritual with a non-hostile beast to replace the one you lost, that is a steep cost. Especially since without the beast, you have no subclass.

So, imagine if you will a subclass that was entirely "Prevent a single round of damage from one enemy once per day" and... well, that wouldn't be a very good subclass, would it?

Answer: Because the enemy may also have good Ranged Attacks. At this level, most enemies should have decent ranged options that at least threaten the squishier backliners. A party doesn't even need good ranged options. Even if they are doing much more damage using Melee attacks, the safety of the Ranged Attacks make using lesser-damage Ranged Attacks much more efficient. If your party is extremely melee-dependent, one of them can prone them to give everyone advantage on the enemy again.

The problem with that is that if you are extending the fight, you are taking more potential damage. And dealing less damage guarantees that you are extending the fight.

Also, the Ranger doesn't get Entangle.

Sorry, I included the Class Variants UA spells into my list. So I forgot that was not base.

Not selling anything to you since you are so adamant about the beastmaster even though its clear you probably never played one to their full potential. I'm selling it to those people that are on the fence and are seriously considering playing it but don't want to be the butt of jokes by a couple of internet commentors.

Clear that I had a ranger who insisted on using the PHB version instead of revised.... for about three sessions then asked if they could still change it.

Also, I grabbed Magic Initiate to use Sanctuary, so its not illegal.

My mistake, you were talking about rituals and I was tired, so I read it as Ritual Caster.