I've got something cool that I want critiqued by the Enworld populace

[jaker2003]

I'd love any comments and balancing help you can provide. I really want a LA and CR for it.

GRIEVE
Large Monstrous Humanoid (Reptilian)
HD: 2d8+2 (14 hp)
Initiative: +1.
Speed: 30 ft., Climb 20ft.
AC: 13 (+1 Dex, +2 natural).
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+7.
Attack: Claws +3 melee 1d6+1 or medium greatsword +3 melee 2d6+2 or +3 melee medium longsword 1d8+1.
Full Attack: Claws +3 melee 1d6+1 and medium greatsword +3 melee 2d6+2 and +3 melee medium longsword 1d8+1.
Space/Reach: 5ft./10ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Enhanced Multiweapon Fighting, Fuse Arms, Hold Breath, Slight Frame, Wall Walk.
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 9
Skills: Appraise +3, Climb +10, Disable Device +3, *Hide +1, Jump +3, Knowledge (arcana) +3, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +3, Knowledge (nature) +3, Profession (any one) +3, and Survival +3.
Feats: Multiweapon Fighting
Environment: The Void (plane)
Organization:
CR: 3?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Any Neutral
Advancement: By character Class
LA: +?

Grieves are hardy people who dwell in the mountainous areas of the Void. Grieves stand more than 9 feet tall and weigh about 200 pounds. Their eyes vary from red to brown to yellow, while they can change their scales from a stony gray to a sandy tan. Grieves have four arms, with each hand ending with two clawed fingers and thumb. The hands on the lower pair of arms are inverted so that the thumb is on the bottom of the hand, and not the top, as would be typical of humanoids. All grieves tend toward simple light clothes and a hooded cloak.
Once a militant race bloodthirsty soldiers, the grieve have vanquished all their foes. After a millenia of peace, the grieve have long forgotten their bloodthirst, though their martial traditions are still embraced in some circles, guarenteeing the grieves' continuing dominance in the Void.
Grieves prefer their own company, but will not actively exclude other people. When dealing with humanoids, grieves usually use their fuse arms ability to appear more like them. Grieves tend to be patient. Grieves are the scholars and artisans of the Void. Grieves offer many shools and universities to the wayward travelers of the Void, including the most prestigous military colloges.
Grieves speak Draconic and Common.

COMBAT
Grieves who enter combat are usually fighters. Those that are from the Outer Spheres are usually barbarians while the local hermits are typically rangers. Even the untrained grieves learned enough of combat from their childhood games to represent a decent threat to a trained soldier. Grieves usually carry weapons of medium size. When meeting someone in combat, they usually fight the first round with only on pair of arms to gauge their opponent. If they believe they cannont beat their opponent, grieves usually pull all the stops, engaging their opponent with all four arms, pushing them back if possible. If a grieve believes he cannot defeat his foe, he will retreat to a cliff or mountain where he can use his natural abilities to climb and hide without fear of pursuit.

Enhanced Multiweapon Fighting (Ex): This ability lessens the penalty for off-hand weapon use by 4 for both primary and off-hands. Combined with the creature’s Multiweapon Fighting feat, it allows the creature to make multiple attacks with its weapons at no penalty on the attack rolls.
Fuse Arms (Ex): The two pairs of arms on each side of a grieve can interlock together, forming and acting as a single, more powerful pair or arms. When using this fused pair, the grieve benefits from a +4 Strength bonus on any activity that uses this fused pair, such as weapon attacks or climbing. When the grieve’s arms are fused in this manner, it may only strike with two claws or weapons, though its combat prowess may allow multiple attacks. When a grieve's arms are fused, it may weild weapons designed for a creature of its size, though it takes the usual penalty for using weapons one size smaller. Fusing or separating its arms in this manner uses a standard action.
Hold Breath (Ex): a grieve can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to four times its Constitution score before it risk drowning or suffocation (see page 304 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide for details).
Slight Frame (Ex): A grieve’s thin frame allows it to function as if it were one size category smaller in several respects. A grieve’s size modifiers to its AC and Hide checks are those of a creature one size smaller. A grieve is also considered to be one size smaller when determining its carrying capacity and whether a creature’s special attacks based on size can affect it. A grieve cannot use weapons designed for a creature of its size without penalty. However, its space and reach remain those of a creature of its actual size. The benefits of this ability stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.
Wall Walk (Ex): A grieve may use its clawed feet to grasp sheer surfaces as an insect does, allowing it to walk along surfaces of any orientation, provided that the traversed surface can support his weight. This ability allows a grieve to climb while leaving its hands free for other tasks. When using its wall walk ability, a grieve cannot add its Strength bonus to its climb check.
Skills: A grieve has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. A grieve’s coloration give it a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks in sandy or mountainous areas.


So, wutchya'll think?

 

[The Edge]

Neat race. hmm...

Slight Frame (Ex): A grieve’s thin frame allows it to function as if it were one size category smaller when it would be beneficial to do so. A grieve’s size modifiers to its AC, attack rolls, and Hide checks are those of a creature one size smaller.

Im not so sure about the attack roll part of that, being skiny doesn't make it any easier to hit some one. Even the AC im not so sure about, despite being thin a large target is a large target, at least in melee, probably ok for ranged.

But then that makes me think of skeletons and all the other slight framed creatures that don't get this bonus. Something that would work and that I use for many creatures, races etc is being able to fit through spaces as if a smaller creature. Eg horses, and these guys.

one more thing, where did you get the rest of that 18 AC from? "(+1 Dex, +2 natural)" ?

 

[jaker2003]

sorry, typo. I've corrected it.

as for slight frame . . .
they're just tall and thin. compact body with long limbs. it's not really massive or voluminous enough to be large, but it's tall enough. I don't think we should punish anybody/anything for improving itself. so why punish them for being tall?
If I built a 12-ft stryofoam golem, do you really think that its massive enough to get the minimum 2d10 construct HD and +30 hp for being a Large Construct . . . That's an average of 45hp just for being a certain height.
I was just trying to do something psuedo-realistic and cool . . . If it's too much trouble, I can just change it all to racial bonuses.
But, yeah, that and the fusing arms are key to the character concept, I'm not gonna give 'em up.

 

[Nyaricus]

neat race!

well, i do like your idea of Slight Frame, but i have a few problems with it.

Weapons>should have to use weapons for a creature of its size. Powerful Build does the opposite, i know, but with the amount of grasping power their hands would have to climb on walls, using smaller weapons wouldnt make any sense and would be redundant.
Carrying Capacity>make it for one creature smaller. they are light-weights, being only 200 pounds at 9 feet tall. I weigh 190 and i am 5'6" (note: this is mostly muscle and not fat).
Speed>fine as it is for landspeed, but the climb speed is a little much. would you consider 20'?
Attack rolls and hide checks>as a large creature, these should be harder to execute. One needs to compensate for something being smaller. Since they are a tall large race, they should be treated as such. AC bonus makes sense since they are really skinny.
Special attacks> treat them as large size. It si benfitial, and since they are a tall race, it makes sense.

otehr than that, cool race man. Id say teh CR would be about 5 (maybe 6) but they have bad AC and low HP, so i might be wrong on that point.

 

[Arkhandus]

This is kinda long because I like to explain my reasoning thoroughly, and because I tend towards rambling. But still valid. As a short summary, I'd suggest CR 4 or 5, and an LA of +2.

The climb speed seems a bit high, but I'm not quite sure, considering their long limbs and high Strength. But then, I'm at odds with them being so strong, anyway, considering their extreme lankyness and lack of density; I highly, highly doubt that a 9-foot tall, lanky, 200-pound humanoid creature would have the bone mass to support the kind of weight that an 18 Strength could lift, let alone absorb the impact of making a mighty 18-strength attack. They don't seem logically viable, without significant supernatural augmentation as the explaination. Their Slight Frame should definitely force them to have the carrying capacities of a creature one size smaller. Hold Breath makes little sense, unless their chest is able to expand significantly; they don't seem to have the torso girth that would normally accomodate holding their breath extra-well.

Slight Frame definitely doesn't make enough sense. If they were elastic enough to squish down to Medium-size equivalent at any time, then it would make sense, but in this case it does not. They should have as much difficulty hiding as a Large creature, and should have the same attack penalty as a Large creature. As others have pointed out, the AC penalty of Large size could conceivably be negated by their peculiar shape.

They aren't bulky enough for a Large creature, to where I should think their Strength and Constitution would be lower. Probably 15 Strength and 10 Constitution, if not lower still, because they're so thin and gangly, and so lightweight for their size, they can't possibly have very dense or sturdy bones and muscles. Unless their strength and constitution are supernatural in origin, I can't possibly see such creatures as being very strong or tough.

Their four claws, Fuse Arms ability, and Enhanced Multi-Weapon Fighting are pretty significant benefits. Alone, one Grieve could probably drop a 3rd-level human fighter (probably Con 14 or 16, 26 or 29 HP) in one round with claws (4d6+16 damage...28-30 damage on average). BTW, you never included their total attack bonus with the claws, should be +6 or +5 (the latter if they are to suffer the usual -1 size penalty on attack rolls). Actually, don't Monstrous Humanoids have BAB=HD, so shouldn't it be +3 BAB/+11 grapple, and +7 or +6 on attacks with the claws? A 3rd-level human fighter would probably have AC of 20 (full plate and +1 from Dex, or a breastplate, +1 from Dex, and tower shield), so the Grieve would likely hit with one claw per round, but possibly more....... Hrum. 3rd-level fighter with greatsword, 18 Str, PA.....1 attack per round at +8 for 2d6+6 or at +5 for 2d6+12 damage......

If the Grieve got rid of that Improved Initiative feat for a more useful Light Armor Proficiency feat, it could have AC 17 and probably make the fight a close one. Of course, for a creature that doesn't normally seem to carry weapons, I have no idea why the hell it has the Multiweapon Fighting feat or the Multiattack feat, when it should instead have Medium Armor Proficiency. If Grieves don't normally carry weapons, and only have one kind of natural attack, why the hell do they have two worthless feats? They would not bother learning those feats if they weren't going to use them.

Multiattack only helps if the critter has multiple kinds of natural attack, like 4 claws and a bite. 4 claws alone, though, wouldn't incur any attack penalty. You may just be unfamiliar with the Monster Manual/SRD's natural weapon rules. Your creature could have 10,000 claw attacks and none of them would suffer an attack penalty, unless the creature also had another natural weapon such as a bite or tail slap, in which case, only the secondary natural weapons suffer an attack penalty. Multiattack only applies in those cases, where the creature has multiple natural weapon types, and only one of those natural weapon types (such as 4 claws) can be counted as primary, with the rest (such as 1 bite and 1 tail slap) being secondary and suffering a -5 attack penalty (-2 instead with Multiattack). There is no reason the Grieves should get useless Multiattack as a racial bonus feat.

So, most likely any Grieve that wasn't an insane moron (which their ability scores don't seem to support) would likely instead have useful feats, like Medium Armor Proficiency, gaining AC 19 to 21 instead. Since they don't bother carrying weapons, they have nothing better to spend their wealth on except a +1 Breastplate; heck, they ought to get a darkwood shield too, and forego one claw attack in exchange. If intended to be warriors, which seems to be the case judging by their stats and abilities nearly all being directed at combat, then that Grieve would likely paste the human fighter with his superior size and power. The fighter will hit him about a third of the time, or a fourth of the time if using Power Attack, while the Grieve likely hits once or twice per round, killing the human fighter on round 2, 3, or 4, by which point the fighter may have finally hit the Grieve once.

Thus, the Grieve as written is most certainly CR 4 or 5. Because they wouldn't bother with the Multiweapon Fighting feat, they'd take something more useful, and Improved Initiative isn't useful enough either for a race with poor unarmored AC; armor proficiency feats are more useful. Now, if the Grieve did focus on offense, it'd take Multiweapon Fighting and Weapon Focus in the Longsword. Then it'd make 4 attacks per round at +7 or +8 each (better yet, since in this scenario they wouldn't have armor proficiencies, they'd probably spring for Masterwork Large Longswords, and attack at +8 or +9) for 2d6+4 or so damage each. That way, they'd probably hit the fighter with 3 out of 4 attacks per round, and, dealing more damage per hit than with their claws, they'd likely kill the fighter in 1 round. Thus, definitely CR 4 or 5 since they can so easily overpower the human 3rd-level fighter. A basic rule for CR: if it can easily kill a normal fighter of same level in a few rounds or less, it's damned well not high enough in CR.

As for Level Adjustment? Well, let's see......+8 STR, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha, extremely unbalanced. There's a +1 Level Adjustment right there or I'm an idiot (and I'm fairly certain the three groups I've been playing and DMing D&D with each week for the past 3-4 years can verily attest to the fact that I am no idiot; forgetful, but not idiotic). 3.5 makes Monstrous Humanoids a bit superior to their 3.0 versions, so Monstrous Humanoid hit dice are nearly equivalent to Fighter class levels (sans only the fighter bonus feats).

Thus, 3 MH hit dice only put the character maybe 1-2 feats in deficit compared to a core-race character of equal HD/level. This makes up for the Grieve's above-average land speed, and climb speed too I suppose, now that I recall the proficiencies that the Grieve doesn't get compared to a Fighter. That makes up for their racial Hide bonus in certain terrain as well, I suppose. This still leaves Wall Walking, darkvision 60 feet, Enhanced Multiweapon Fighting, Hold Breath, Slight Frame, Fuse Arms, Large size, 10-foot reach, and +2 natural armor to account for......

The darkvision, creature type/subtype, and natural armor could easily be considered basic racial traits, like an elf's low-light vision, trance, enchantment resistance, and proficiencies. Might be a tad better, but not by much. The Grieve's Wall Walking and Hold Breath, perhaps, would make up for lack of an elf's skill benefits and such. That leaves, well, probably another +1 level adjustment worth of stuff. 10 feet of natural reach is significant, at least worth a feat or two in equivalence, if not more (I've seen 10 feet of a dragon's or giant's reach have a real impact on PCs being unable to escape the threatened areas long enough to quaff a potion, fire a bow, or cast a spell, at least without drawing an AoO). Enhanced Multiweapon Fighting is at least 2 feats worth of power; completely negating the penalties for using more than one weapon (or using double weapons), combined with having 4 arms/hands, is significant.

Probably worth more like 3-4 feats because it means wielding 4 longswords at once without penalty, or 2 greatswords without penalty. Combined with 3.5 Power Attack rules, this can get horribly absurd, very fast. "Why, yes, thank you Mr. DM for letting me play a Grieve, I do believe I will use 2 Large Greatswords and Power Attack for 2d8+8+6 damage each for only a -3 penalty from Power Attack." +8 Strength means a Grieve could have potentially 26 Strength to start with, if they rolled an 18 (or bought it with point buy).

Having 4 arms with dextrous hands is useful in and of itself, too. Carry a shield, a wand, and wield a composite longbow all at the same time, Mr. Grieve Fighter/Bard! Or a Large Longspear, a Large Longsword, and a heavy shield at the same time.

Slight Frame, as written so far, negates -1 attack, -1 AC, -4 Hide, and a few rarely-relevant lesser tidbits I think. At the same time, being size Large grants a greater carrying capacity, increases unarmed strike and grapple damage, allows wielding larger weapons (more damage, and +4 to disarm attempts or resisting disarm), +4 on grapple checks, +4 on trips/resisting trips IIRC, etc. Thus, Large size in this case is worth at least 3 or 4 feats (Improved Grapple would give the +4 grapple bonus IIRC, Improved Trip would give the trip bonus, Improved Disarm would give the disarm bonus, and Weapon Specialization would grant a similar but less far-spanning damage increase), while Slight Frame is, as written worth at least 3 feats (Weapon Focus, Dodge, Skill Focus, at least, if not more than that).

This yields, in total, 11-14 feats in benefits beyond what was already accounted for in racial hit dice and basic racial traits. That's a +1 Level Adjustment in equivalence there. Side-note, you never listed any favored class, even though you list the Grieves as advancing by character class. Racial hit dice for creatures that advance by class levels are typically considered an extra favored class, effectively.

 

[evolved]

DITCH THE ENHANCED MULTI-WEAPON fight and multi-attack they dont fit the creature

either drop small frame or increase the penalties,reduce carrying no bonus to grapple, trip etc (maybe call it delicate frame instead because its opposite is powerful not big frame)

a little more about society and tactics would help

possibly reduce str bonus to plus 4 if they want to get plus 8 tell them to fuse the arms

 

[jaker2003]

*Removed Darkvision
*Adjusted HD and reduced Strength
*Dropped Multiattack and Improved Initiative
*Adjusted Slight Frame
*Adjusted speeds
*Adjusted Armament
*Adjusted background
*Added Combat Tactics
*Adjusted skills to include Hide skill

Comments requested.

 

[evolved]

ok i see it now
very interesting race
but you might want to chaeck your attack ratiings because the stats should have a +4 to attack with no penalty unless i'm missing something
and the the longsword should be 1d8+1 damage if its in an off hand
I could definetly see +3 LA

 

[magic_gathering2001]

They have a special forum for monsters under 'hosted sites'

 

[jaker2003]

ok i see it now
very interesting race
but you might want to chaeck your attack ratiings because the stats should have a +4 to attack with no penalty unless i'm missing something
and the the longsword should be 1d8+1 damage if its in an off hand
I could definetly see +3 LA

Attack: +2 Monstrous Humanoid HD, +2 Strength bonus, -1 Large size = +3 BAB
OK, I think I fixed all that