I've managed to avoid Essentials, until now...

You missed the warpriest.

Slayers and knights certainly are fighters. That's why they are under "fighter" in the book.

Thieves are certainly rogues. That's why they are under "rogue" in the book.

Mages are certainly wizards. That's why they are under "wizard" in the book.

You may not like it, you may not feel that a mage is much like other wizards, but insisting that "slayers aren't fighters" or "mages aren't wizards" is just silly. It's written in plain English in the books you are discussing. If you can't accept that, I don't see how anyone can take your discussion of the subject seriously at all- you're arguing that something explicitly stated in the books in question is not true. And your argument seems to boil down to- "But this one's different so it cannot be the same!"

Not to fuel the fire, but here is my take on it.

I have played 4e since it came out, and before essentials I knew exactly how a fighter worked. I know how they mark, I know how their combat challenge works, etc. It didn't matter if it was a guardian or greatweapon or tempest fighter. They slayer comes out. If I'm thinking okay, slayer is just another fighter build that marks stuff, limits their mobility, and punishes them for disobeying his mark, then I'll be making a mistake. Slayer does not work like a fighter. A slayer can pull out a bow and put giant holes in the enemy at 20/40 squares. Monsters can shift around the slayer without worry to flank and shank him. Slayer is more akin to ranger than fighter in my book.

It is not unreasonable to consider essentials classes to be new classes. You make fewer mistakes with that line of thought. Their commonalities are in the powers and feats they share. But everyone has powers.

Compare a first level fighter with Precision Ambush Style, Footwork Lure, Crushing Surge, Covering Attack, and Come Back Strike, vs a first level avenger with Power of Skill, Overwhelming Strike, Radiant Vengeance, Pass at Arms, and Renewing Strike. The powers, and even the class specific feats can be very similar across classes. What's more class defining are the common class features such as Combat Challenge, or Oath of Enmity. Once you start blurring the lines there too, it becomes at best difficult to determine what defines the characteristics of a class.

The character builder approach tells us, Fighter, Knight, and Slayer are just 3 builds (for lack of a better descriptor) that have sufficiently different rules that govern them, to warrant separate entries. And without playing on words, that is a separation to be aware and conscious of.
 

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Just out of curiousity, have you actually seen any of these classes in play?

Yup.

Multiple times to use it in nearly every encounter? I'm sorry, this really isn't true.

It was for my Wizard in our campaigns.

I ran a Human Wizard who mostly did area effect type attack spells and if he couldn't target 2 or more foes, he would often use Magic Missile on either whomever looked the most damaged or whomever the Striker was targeting.

At low level, there is only 1 encounter power at levels 1 and 2, and 2 encounter powers at levels 3 through 6. The vast majority of attacks in an encounter are At Wills. And compared to other At Will single target attacks that tend to do 2 to 4 extra damage over MM with a 60% chance to hit with some minor kicker like Slowed (or -2 to hit, or some other equally ineffective only helps the situation 1 round in ~10 type effects), automatically doing 7 or 8 points of damage (12% to 25% of opponent hit points) makes a lot of sense, especially when the PCs are mostly using focus fire on the same foe (granted, I was incorrectly using Arcane Reserves and Gauntlets of Blood for that PC, so that did increase the frequency some, I hate knowing a rule and then forgeting it).

If the Wizard player in your game has MM and doesn't use it frequently at low level when it is appropriate (typically at least 1 round in 3), that's his mistake. Granted, at higher levels when PCs have more options and foes have more hit points, the frequency of using MM should drop.

But multiple times (at least 2 out of 6 or more) per encounter? Yup. Happened all of the time.

Just out of curiousity, have you actually seen a Wizard with MM in play? Was he played well?
 


I think I will just address the original question and avoid all the competitive pissing and vitriolic posturing that seems to have taken over this otherwise potentially useful thread.

One limiter that we have always used at our table is if you want to use powers/feats/abilities etc. from book x, y, or z, you either have to buy the book, or at least two other people at the table have to already own the book. Also, you have to have all your feats and powers listed out word for word when you submit your character to the DM. (Though, you can do this by simply letting him borrow your book, or by copy/paste-ing the contents from the compendium and emailing them in. This means they have to support material they want to use, and takes the burden off the DM to have all the material available.

Additionally, there is some power creep involved in essentials, especially if combined with pre-essentials material. So you may still want to limit it in a campaign.

I would have him make up a character in the CB and print it out for you (it does have much better descriptions of the feats and abilities) so you can look it over, and then you can decide whether or not to allow it before he spends his money on a new book.
 

What a juvenile argument.

Knights and Slayers are fighters. Thieves are Rogues and Mages are Wizards. That's why they're listed under those headings in the book. That's also why all of the powers other than those granted by class features are called WIZARD 'x' 'y'.

Squares and rectangles. Squares and rectangles.

I don't know what this has to do with the OP but it's a totally ridiculous discussion. You can call Mages whatever you'd like and say they aren't Wizards. That's totally fine, but don't act like what you think makes a lick of sense to anyone else. It doesn't. WoTC has stated what a Mage is, it's a Wizard with some different class features.
 
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Good to know, and thanks for the response. :)

I ran a Human Wizard who mostly did area effect type attack spells and if he couldn't target 2 or more foes, he would often use Magic Missile on either whomever looked the most damaged or whomever the Striker was targeting.

...

And compared to other At Will single target attacks that tend to do 2 to 4 extra damage over MM with a 60% chance to hit with some minor kicker like Slowed (or -2 to hit, or some other equally ineffective only helps the situation 1 round in ~10 type effects), automatically doing 7 or 8 points of damage (12% to 25% of opponent hit points) makes a lot of sense, especially when the PCs are mostly using focus fire on the same foe (granted, I was incorrectly using Arcane Reserves and Gauntlets of Blood for that PC, so that did increase the frequency some, I hate knowing a rule and then forgeting it).

If the Wizard player in your game has MM and doesn't use it frequently at low level when it is appropriate (typically at least 1 round in 3), that's his mistake. Granted, at higher levels when PCs have more options and foes have more hit points, the frequency of using MM should drop.

But multiple times (at least 2 out of 6 or more) per encounter? Yup. Happened all of the time.

Keep in mind, my point wasn't that it was useless - sure, you canuse it a few times per encounter, and have it be about as effective as any other at-will. My point is that in those situations, it isn't more effective than another at-will. Claiming that a low-level wizard who doesn't use it 1/3 of the time is making a mistake... I just don't see it.

You mention it only being a difference of 2 to 4 damage. First off, it really depends on how much the wizard has invested in dealing damage. With no bonuses at all, sure, 1d6 or 1d8 vs a flat 2 damage is indeed about that amount. Adding in Arcane Reserves is another +2 damage. Gauntlets of Blood is another +2 vs bloodied enemies. What about if we have a Staff of Ruin? Dual Implement Spellcaster? Implement Focus? Suddenly, we are comparing 7 or 8 damage up against 18 or 20 damage. Unless we have really poor chances to hit, Magic Missile is definitely starting to come out behind.

Now, of course, not everyone will have all of those investments. So let's look just as the ones you mention, Arcane Reserves and Gauntlets of Blood (likely to be in use by the time we're out of Encounters and focusing fire on enemies close to death.) We can have our automatic Magic Missile for 7 or 8 damage. Or we can deal 1d6+9 damage with a 60% hit chance - giving us around 7 to 8 damage... plus slowed. Thus, both are pretty much just as good in that situation.

Now, will there be times when the MM will finish someone off when Ray of Frost would have missed and been useless? Sure - but probably just as many times when MM will auto-hit and leave the enemy with a few hp left, when Ray of Frost could have hit and finished it.

I'm not saying MM is useless. I'm just saying it is only better than other At-Wills in a very specific set of circumstances, and those circumstances will only come up once in a blue moon. The rest of the time, the Wizard without MM is just as well off as the Mage who gets it for free.

And, honestly? The above scenario is comparing it to Ray of Frost. There are probably other At-Wills a good wizard will have that bring much more to the table.

Just out of curiousity, have you actually seen a Wizard with MM in play? Was he played well?

Only in a one-shot, admittedly. Actually, specifically given to a less experienced player on the theory that they had MM to fall back upon for ease of use - but, in this case, I don't think it was ever cast. And the mage was perfectly effective, and I can't recall any situations where using MM instead of another at-will would have been especially useful.
 

My point is that in those situations, it isn't more effective than another at-will. Claiming that a low-level wizard who doesn't use it 1/3 of the time is making a mistake... I just don't see it.

You mention it only being a difference of 2 to 4 damage. First off, it really depends on how much the wizard has invested in dealing damage. With no bonuses at all, sure, 1d6 or 1d8 vs a flat 2 damage is indeed about that amount. Adding in Arcane Reserves is another +2 damage. Gauntlets of Blood is another +2 vs bloodied enemies. What about if we have a Staff of Ruin? Dual Implement Spellcaster? Implement Focus? Suddenly, we are comparing 7 or 8 damage up against 18 or 20 damage. Unless we have really poor chances to hit, Magic Missile is definitely starting to come out behind.

Do you know how MANY feats and magic items a Wizard PC has to have (and one has to have items and feats that are perfectly designed for this, i.e. no toughness or unarmored agility because the PC is focusing on damage) to get to 18 or 20 average damage at low level?

D8+5 (the equivalent of Int 20 7 damage for MM) needs +10 to get to 19.5 average damage. That's a minimum of 6 items and/or feats and typically 7.

One could technically have this by level 4, but most DMs don't hand out these types of items automatically. Or at least the DMs I have played with. They don't just hand out the best offensive damage items at low level. One acquires in our games a variety of items, not just offensive ones and not just the absolute best ones for damage dealing only.

Sure, the player might acquire several of those items by high heroic, but not low heroic. Dual Implement Spellcaster alone requires 2 magic implements and most PCs shouldn't really get a second magic implement until they get a neck item, armor, and maybe a more miscellaneous item. You're talking mid-heroic at the earliest if one reasonably follows the basic DMG model.

Yes, techically a DM could hand out perfect offensive items to a player for his Wizard, but I suspect that most DMs do not.

So let's look just as the ones you mention, Arcane Reserves and Gauntlets of Blood (likely to be in use by the time we're out of Encounters and focusing fire on enemies close to death.) We can have our automatic Magic Missile for 7 or 8 damage. Or we can deal 1d6+9 damage with a 60% hit chance - giving us around 7 to 8 damage... plus slowed. Thus, both are pretty much just as good in that situation.

Now, will there be times when the MM will finish someone off when Ray of Frost would have missed and been useless? Sure - but probably just as many times when MM will auto-hit and leave the enemy with a few hp left, when Ray of Frost could have hit and finished it.

I'm not saying MM is useless. I'm just saying it is only better than other At-Wills in a very specific set of circumstances, and those circumstances will only come up once in a blue moon. The rest of the time, the Wizard without MM is just as well off as the Mage who gets it for free.

And, honestly? The above scenario is comparing it to Ray of Frost. There are probably other At-Wills a good wizard will have that bring much more to the table.

Once in a blue moon? Like I said, my low level play experience disagrees with your armchair assessment.

And actually, I wasn't specifically comparing it to Ray of Frost (50% chance to hit if the Wizard is lucky), just any of the single target powers. Phantom Bolt for a one square slide. Illusory Ambush for the -2 to hit (which unless the foe is doing a multi-foe attack next round, -2 is rarely going to make a difference, 1 encounter in 5 if the Wizard is lucky). Cloud of Daggers for a little extra damage.

But I was talking about situations like the foe is already bloodied and the Striker hits but does not kill him, or the foe was already hit once or twice and the Striker bloodies him heavily. These happen quite often. I pretty much know that with 7 or 8 damage, the MM is going to take that foe out at least 80% of the time (unless it is an Elite or Solo and most of the time, I can figure those out). The Illusory Ambush takes him out 60% of the time.

Which is better?

It's definitely not something for every single round, hence, the reason I specified one round in three.

But if I can drop the opposition from 5 foes on round one to 4 foes on round one? You bet. Drop him, decrease enemy damage by 20% right away, and change the action economy from 5 on 5 to 5 on 4. That will save healing surges and other resources every time.

If I use the Illusory Ambush and hit, it too will drop the foe. But, there's that pesky 40% miss chance as well. And when that happens, one or more ally PCs have to waste attacks to make sure that foe is down.

Granted, I could do 7 or 8 points and he still has 3 hit points remaining. It happens. But it doesn't happen as often as MM taking the foe out because I have a good idea when it will drop a foe and when it won't. If I don't think it will, I might use a different option, although automatically taking a foe with 15 hit points down to single digit hit points will definitely set him up to be taken down by the next successful hit from most fellow PCs, low damage roll or not.

It's a team effort and one of the best ways to work as a team is to focus fire and decrease the number of enemies.
 

And actually, I wasn't specifically comparing it to Ray of Frost (50% chance to hit if the Wizard is lucky), just any of the single target powers. …

But I was talking about situations like the foe is already bloodied and the Striker hits but does not kill him, or the foe was already hit once or twice and the Striker bloodies him heavily. These happen quite often. I pretty much know that with 7 or 8 damage, the MM is going to take that foe out at least 80% of the time (unless it is an Elite or Solo and most of the time, I can figure those out). The Illusory Ambush takes him out 60% of the time.

Which is better?

One the multi-target powers you're not considering. Multiple attacks, whether against a single target or multiple targets, are vastly more powerful than single-target attacks because of the way static damage modifiers work. Want to finish off someone that's low? Include them in a blast for a good chance of taking them out and getting another enemy or two one step closer to down.
 

One the multi-target powers you're not considering. Multiple attacks, whether against a single target or multiple targets, are vastly more powerful than single-target attacks because of the way static damage modifiers work. Want to finish off someone that's low? Include them in a blast for a good chance of taking them out and getting another enemy or two one step closer to down.

Actually, I did consider it.

If you go back and read my first post on my Wizard, he took mostly area attacks for use against 2 or more foes. That's the best way to deal damage and inflict conditions (although I cannot tell you how many times I've attacked 3 foes and rolled 3, 4, and 5 or some such).

I don't know of any low level Wizard powers that alllow one to attack the same target more than once though. Do you have an example?
 

Well, I've had a look at his sheet tonight and someone the things on there I honestly had no idea about, particularly the magic schools thing. I haven't played 3.5 so it's a new concept to me.

The powers and what he can do doesn't look very different from a regular wizard, but a few of them (chiefly magic missle) work differently compared to the "regular" wizard that the DM runs when he is playing and I DM. Different uses of the same spell....

And this is putting aside the fact that almost everyone else in thre group thinks Essentials is a further dumbing down of the system.

However, we're both reserving our judgment until we've seen the wizard in action, as paper can only tell you so much. At this moment I am still rather against it, and if it doesn't go well I'll let him loose with all the content we can have.

And yes, he has bought the books now. Before I run it I am reading them.
 

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