I've reversed my stance on dragonborn and tieflings
- Thread starter Mercule
- Start date
Wyrmshadows
Explorer
I think that tieflings are going to be largely acceptable in places where many like myself feel they should have no such acceptance is because of how D&D has handled demons/devils for years.
For years D&D has characterized demons and devil as nothing more than mosters than hail from somewhere else. This is largely because of both D&D's PG-rated roots and its roots as a simple hack n' slash fest game having little to no depth whatsoever. In a game where these are no "big questions" oustide of whether a warrior's sword is enchanted enough to slaughter a given creature, tieflings are no big deal because they are, like half-orcs, part monster, nothing more, nothing less.
However if we can set aside D&D as a simplistic game and jack up the sophistication a notch or two and create settings that have actual depth and breadth (these do exist) tieflings take on an entirely different connotation. In settings where folks realize that demons/devils are actual manifestation of some would argue nearly infinite cosmic evil and they have bred with humans creating a race where the very nature of corruption pumps through their veins...I think perhaps they would be viewed as a terrible threat that would be attacked and slain on sight or at the very least prompt reactions of stark terror from local villagers I can't imagine anyone simply accepting such a creature so as not to appear the bigot against those who are different. I doubt anyone would think to sit down and have an ale with this beast than he or she would a creature that just ripped its way out of the bowls of hell.
D&D has had to make use of the Far Realms to contain REAL madness inducing horror and evil because of the treatment devils and demons have received over the years. The Cthulu thing works well for Lovecraft's stories because his "Far Realms" is actually the basis for reality in a nihilistic vision of otherworldy malevolence that underlies the very fabric of reality. Cool for Lovecraft, crappy for anything but the most dark and hopeless fantasy millieu.
In reality nothing can be more evil or terrifying than the manifestation of cosmic wickedness. This is the kind of evil that no man or woman (not even Stalin or Hitler) can ultimately match because in doing so they themselves would become demonic/diabilical. Even the worst humans are loyal to something at least enough to consider whether or not they should sacrifice it to further their own agendas. Heck, even Hitler loved Eva Braughn and his dogs. Those who do not even have this level of humanity are, in our world, insane, but in fantasy could be touched by the demonic.
Richard Speck
Jack the Ripper
Charles Manson
The Green Riven Killer
The Boston Strangler
etc.
These men and others like them, by real life standards, are mad. However IMO these men are what those touched by the demonic would be like. There is no need for lovecraftian horrors (not that there is anything wrong with them) when demon touched humans are capable of cruelties and barbarity such as Lovecraft himself never even wrote about.
Demons and Devils in D&D have never lived up to their evil potential. This is probably because of the game's target audience. I have read White Wolf materials about vampires that make the Lords of Hell look like 3rd graders in regards to their malevolence.
A shame really.
What makes the fantastic interesting, even in fantasy, is that it isn't everywhere all the time. Tieflings as very rare heroes seeking redemption from the taint that lies within them cool. A tiefling villian, again cool. A tiefling or tieflings that wander human, elven and dwarven lands without stiff potential consequences (such as getting feathered with arrows when the elves immediately and reasonably see you as a demon fit for destruction), well that IMO takes fantasy into absurdity by divorcing all believability from the game and the setting being used. Tieflings as a relatively common core race ups the "wow, cool" factor while making me think of D&D as well....goofy. Not all settings of course, just those that would support such a dynamic with a race like tieflings.
There is an the adage the "Truth is stranger than fiction." The adage is valid because fiction (and that includes the internally consistant fictitious settings of D&D) has to follow a certain logic to be believable. It has to live up to certain baseline expectations in order to allow for the suspension of disbelief. Ironically, reality has to follow no such rules.
For years D&D has characterized demons and devil as nothing more than mosters than hail from somewhere else. This is largely because of both D&D's PG-rated roots and its roots as a simple hack n' slash fest game having little to no depth whatsoever. In a game where these are no "big questions" oustide of whether a warrior's sword is enchanted enough to slaughter a given creature, tieflings are no big deal because they are, like half-orcs, part monster, nothing more, nothing less.
However if we can set aside D&D as a simplistic game and jack up the sophistication a notch or two and create settings that have actual depth and breadth (these do exist) tieflings take on an entirely different connotation. In settings where folks realize that demons/devils are actual manifestation of some would argue nearly infinite cosmic evil and they have bred with humans creating a race where the very nature of corruption pumps through their veins...I think perhaps they would be viewed as a terrible threat that would be attacked and slain on sight or at the very least prompt reactions of stark terror from local villagers I can't imagine anyone simply accepting such a creature so as not to appear the bigot against those who are different. I doubt anyone would think to sit down and have an ale with this beast than he or she would a creature that just ripped its way out of the bowls of hell.
D&D has had to make use of the Far Realms to contain REAL madness inducing horror and evil because of the treatment devils and demons have received over the years. The Cthulu thing works well for Lovecraft's stories because his "Far Realms" is actually the basis for reality in a nihilistic vision of otherworldy malevolence that underlies the very fabric of reality. Cool for Lovecraft, crappy for anything but the most dark and hopeless fantasy millieu.
In reality nothing can be more evil or terrifying than the manifestation of cosmic wickedness. This is the kind of evil that no man or woman (not even Stalin or Hitler) can ultimately match because in doing so they themselves would become demonic/diabilical. Even the worst humans are loyal to something at least enough to consider whether or not they should sacrifice it to further their own agendas. Heck, even Hitler loved Eva Braughn and his dogs. Those who do not even have this level of humanity are, in our world, insane, but in fantasy could be touched by the demonic.
Richard Speck
Jack the Ripper
Charles Manson
The Green Riven Killer
The Boston Strangler
etc.
These men and others like them, by real life standards, are mad. However IMO these men are what those touched by the demonic would be like. There is no need for lovecraftian horrors (not that there is anything wrong with them) when demon touched humans are capable of cruelties and barbarity such as Lovecraft himself never even wrote about.
Demons and Devils in D&D have never lived up to their evil potential. This is probably because of the game's target audience. I have read White Wolf materials about vampires that make the Lords of Hell look like 3rd graders in regards to their malevolence.
A shame really.
What makes the fantastic interesting, even in fantasy, is that it isn't everywhere all the time. Tieflings as very rare heroes seeking redemption from the taint that lies within them cool. A tiefling villian, again cool. A tiefling or tieflings that wander human, elven and dwarven lands without stiff potential consequences (such as getting feathered with arrows when the elves immediately and reasonably see you as a demon fit for destruction), well that IMO takes fantasy into absurdity by divorcing all believability from the game and the setting being used. Tieflings as a relatively common core race ups the "wow, cool" factor while making me think of D&D as well....goofy. Not all settings of course, just those that would support such a dynamic with a race like tieflings.
There is an the adage the "Truth is stranger than fiction." The adage is valid because fiction (and that includes the internally consistant fictitious settings of D&D) has to follow a certain logic to be believable. It has to live up to certain baseline expectations in order to allow for the suspension of disbelief. Ironically, reality has to follow no such rules.
Last edited:
The Ubbergeek
First Post
pemerton said:
You know... That remind me of a criticism an italian player gave on the big unofficial Shadowrun forum.
His point was that Shadowrun is indeed quite not generic with the 'metahuman, expressions... while he liked the variant subraces offered in 3rd ed, he complained that such races have really no reasons to be present in outside of the celtic/germanic (in the large sense of the languages familly) europe much as BASE races.
You have to know that in Shadowrun, magic work much on consensual reality, and the mindset... Mages, shamans, and all, they weave magic along their personal ideas and culture. And the whole of magic, especially considering the metahuman variants, seems much leaned that way.
So his point that was, such races are not so core, common fantasy, as no similar creatures existed in the myths of italia, from the romans to now (albeit the dwarves are particulary common if you ask me, and then, you had the germanic conquerors...), and that there should be more instead of local metavariations.
So, to make long short, they are actually less neutral than expected. It's just that the classic D&D fantasy is defined by default (sadly too much perhaps) as germanic/celtic/english tolkien-like.
mhacdebhandia
Explorer
While no company comes close to Wizards of the Coast's market share, White Wolf is one of the biggest companies around, and their World of Darkness games including the new version of Vampire are still huge when compared to any game that isn't Dungeons & Dragons.hazel monday said:
The Ubbergeek
First Post
Raduin711 said:
ZOMG!!!
(I would be more a Shadowrun person, but it's even harder to find a dm or players around...)
mhacdebhandia
Explorer
Hey, my wife bought me Requiem for Rome for Christmas. 
The Ubbergeek
First Post
Dormammu said:Hi, welcome to the United States of America. We are the homeland of TSR and Wizards of the Coasts, publishers of Dungeons and Dragons, a game rooted in the mythology of our predominantly Western European heritage.
You have read what I have posted? the italian dude pointed well that dwarves, elves, etc... as presented are hardly enormously more basic fantasy. They are quite specific to not even the whole of western europe, but the celtic-germanic area.
You frequently forget that we are not all 'anglos'.
Imagine if tolkien had bombed, and Gygax brought more influences from other sources, and what would be the 'core' d&d races...
(now, I am not against those races myself... just pointing a little detail)
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