James Wyatt + Eberron

[Wormwood]

Most folks who use it never seem to have actually been really slapped in the face --

Pity, that.

 

[Rechan]

My point was that WotC has shown no sign that they are going to listen to the "gnashing of teeth" over demons/devils or cosmology.

And I had seen no indication of them changing their mind on the Eberron TLA until Wyatt announced it.

Besides, as far as I can tell, it was far more than just a vocal minority in the case of Eberron.

I was one of several involved in the debate over the TLA change on the WotC board, and it seemed more like it was three or four very loud individuals who just would not let the thread die than a huge outcry among the messageboard.

I disagree with the necessity of having a timeline advance to provide an interesting 4E ECS.

Did I say anything about "interesting"? It also helps explain where the heck the 4e stuff is coming from. If there's a class in the 4e PHB that's all about throwing noodles, then that's gotta go somewhere, and "Oh well there have always been people who threw noodles in Eberron; you just never noticed them" is really lame.

After all, they could just summerize or revise all the various material in the supplements released since the original ECS, as well as just make up new stuff that takes place in year 998. Besides, I don't really care about getting new stuff in the 4E ECS. The ECS should cover the basics, not expand the setting.

Keith said that the 4e ECS has to do everything the 3.5 ECS did: introduce the setting to new people.

And quite frankly, I'm not going to buy the 4e ECS if all I'm getting is cut and pasted material from the 3.5 ECS with some numbers adjusted. I am certain that the races and the Artificer class will be supplied to me via other books (like the MM) or Digital Initiative before the 4e ECS comes out.

Did they have to do a timeline jump to explain having Warlocks from Complete Arcane or Bo9S stuff in Eberron?

Those things weren't in the PHB. They were very late incarnations and splatbook creations. So there was no assumption that enough people would be using it that they needed to make a change to supply it; it just required shoe-horning into a little corner over here.

Do such things need explanation at all? I don't think DMs or Players need WotC to use drastic measures the describe the setting for a new edition, and Eberron is certainly open and flexible enough to accept change to the mechanics without a change to the setting.

You apparently haven't heard all the complaining about the Player's Guide to Eberron, its sidebars, and trying to cram Every Single Thing WotC has Published into the setting.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Did I say anything about "interesting"? It also helps explain where the heck the 4e stuff is coming from. If there's a class in the 4e PHB that's all about throwing noodles, then that's gotta go somewhere, and "Oh well there have always been people who threw noodles in Eberron; you just never noticed them" is really lame.

If you are not looking for something interesting in the ECS, then what new information do you want? "interesting" is about the only thing I look for in the fluff of D&D books... I can't imagine using something uninteresting, at the very least... Even if all you care about is that the words are new, I don't see why they need a time jump to achieve that. I, certainly, never argued that they should just reprint the 3E ECS with a few modifications.

Also, I don't have a problem with the "you just never noticed them" idea, so I can't agree that it is lame.

I mean, characters who wizards in 3E will still be wizards in 4E, so there is no need to retcon. Some characters who were fighters, like King Boranel, might now be warlords, but that is arguably a better class for guys like the king in the first place. No need to change his identity or his history, or explain some magical retraining he underwent. The DM and Players know there was an edition change. The rules changed, and that is all the explanation necessary. All the books need to do is list (Warlord 12) by his name, and mention how many generals and field commanders in the Last War were warlords, and that is fine.

Also, I don't see what that specific thread or the Player's Guide to Eberron have to do with my points... I never paid much attention to that thread, and I doubt the designers made their decision based on that thread. I am referring to the minor commenting going on across various Eberron threads on various message boards. It seemed like there was pretty widespread hate for the idea from my perspective. I guess, lacking any definitve polls on the subject, that it is impossible to say.

I disliked all the sidebars in the Player's Guide to Eberron too. They were unnecessary and mostly uninspired. I don't see the relevence to my opinions.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I'm really hoping we can retire "slap in the face" as an Internetism in 2007. Most folks who use it never seem to have actually been really slapped in the face -- it's a lot more severe than it's used as being, most of the time.

It is not an internetism. It is an idiom. I have been hearing it for years. Get over it.

Besides, I meant it to be interpreted as a "severe shock", not a minor annoyance. Having people denounce your ideas hurts. And the more enthusiastic you are about your ideas, the more it hurts when they insult them. I really feel for the guys at WotC who had to endure that, and applaud them for having the guts to give up on an idea they thought was great. That kind of dealing with criticism, and having the courage to set aside a bad idea, is one of the most difficult and important aspects of the creative process. It is the thing which seperates true entertainers from the stuck-up fools.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I wasn't overly concerned by the prospect of a timeline advancement, but I'm pretty happy that it's not advancing, too.

It sets a small, but potentially important, precedent. It may well be ignored when the next edition rolls around, or even sooner than that, but it's something.

I prefer the idea that the timeline doesn't advance. I prefer the idea that the novels won't be treated as canon. They are, of course, separate issues, but I am glad that James Wyatt has confirmed that both of them will be true of Eberron in the future.

I don't agree with some of the outright hysteria that's been heard over either issue - but, I don't know, it's like when you hear that a sequel to one of your favourite movies might be recasting a crucial character, originally played by someone you really loved in the role. No matter how good an actor the proposed replacement might be, it's not the same, and it's an unnecessary change - at least artistically speaking.

So my relief at this juncture is, I guess, less "They won't be ruining the setting anymore! Hooray!" and more "Ah, good. They're keeping things just the same as they were when I grew to like the setting."

It's an unusually conservative position for me to be taking - but I guess I feel that Eberron is one of the rare things where I'm positive it's not broken and see no reason to fix it.

 

[Anti-Sean]

I wasn't overly concerned by the prospect of a timeline advancement, but I'm pretty happy that it's not advancing, too.

QFT.

 

[Hamburger Mary]

I was one of several involved in the debate over the TLA change on the WotC board, and it seemed more like it was three or four very loud individuals who just would not let the thread die than a huge outcry among the messageboard.

To echo what I originally posted on the WotC boards, I simply can't imagine that the posts of three or four posters on two separate threads were what drove this decision. To me, that assumption is sheer egotism on the part of the posters in question - "we did it all by ourselves!"

If you look at the other facts and at what James has posted in subsequent messages, the path for FR was laid out in 2005, and the path for Eberron has not yet been established. James states that "FR and Eberron are two different beasts." I think that WotC saw the massive outcry to the changes to FR and this caused them to stop and question whether the changes to Eberron were actually necessary. JAMES may have seen the threads in question, but there's no evidence that Andy Collins or Chris Perkins did, and by James' statement they were both questioning it independently. And given that Keith has long been a champion of the "Novels aren't Canon" plank, I doubt he was fighting for a TLA.

So I don't think this was remotely a reaction to the rabid posting of a few Eberron fans. I think that it was a course of action they weren't strongly committed to in the first place, and that the massive outcry over the FR changes caused them to reevaluate it and conclude that, in the case of Eberron, it wasn't required.

 

[Desdichado]

Personally, I think a lot more people need to be slapped in the face than have been.

 

[Rechan]

So I don't think this was remotely a reaction to the rabid posting of a few Eberron fans. I think that it was a course of action they weren't strongly committed to in the first place, and that the massive outcry over the FR changes caused them to reevaluate it and conclude that, in the case of Eberron, it wasn't required.

So I guess that when James said in his announcement, "We hear you", he was just blowing smoke up the messageboarders asses?

 

[Hamburger Mary]

So I guess that when James said in his announcement, "We hear you", he was just blowing smoke up the messageboarders asses?

No. I think he, James Waytt, did hear them. He read those threads, one of which was specifically about his book.

But do you honestly think that the upper management of Wizards of the Coast made their decision based purely on the rabid posting of, for most of the thread, two people? He may have "heard" them - that doesn't mean that their posts forced him to change his mind about the right direction for the setting.

Take another look at things he's posted.

The fact (unfortunate though it may be) is that Eberron and the Forgotten Realms are two different beasts. Eberron is still a relatively new setting, and from the start it has taken a very PC-centered approach to events in the world. There aren’t a ton of high-level NPCs running around, doing the things that PCs should be doing. There haven't been world-shattering events that altered the world and demanded timeline advancement. Its novel line has told stories within the context of the setting without dramatically altering the setting.

Partly that's because, quite frankly, we haven't started work on the new Eberron campaign setting.

Andy Collins and Chris Perkins, who both occupy manager positions just above me (Chris is my boss), apparently started asking themselves independently whether this decision was a good idea. I had been wondering about it, too, of course. Andy talked to me about it on Friday, and Chris talked to me about it yesterday.

And the key point Andy made to me is that the job of a campaign setting is not to tell stories. The job of novels is to tell stories, and the job of you folks at your gaming tables is to tell stories. But the function of a campaign setting is to give you a place to tell your stories, a backdrop, background characters (your PCs are always the protagonists), and lots and lots of ideas for stories to tell.

That last one is especially critical, particularly the highlighted part. He doesn't say "I was convinced by Shady314's repeated complaints about how it would ruin his personal campaign." In fact, he says nothing about Andy, Chris, or even himself being influenced by the fans whatsoever. Yes, he "heard" the fans. However, the facts of the matter are that the TLA had not been set in stone, that Eberron is very different from FR, and that when the upper managers of WotC considered the issue they decided that it was the wrong approach for Eberron.

Don't get me wrong: I'm sure that the posters helped, especially those who presented rational arguments. But frankly, I think it's utterly ridiculous to assume that any of the WotC staff somehow felt pressured to do this by a handful of people posting on the message boards - that James said "Oh my god, I can't let Shady down!" As I've said before, I doubt Andy Collins has even read the relevant Eberron thread - though I'm sure he's aware of the general uproar over FR. I think that they saw the impact of the change to FR and that this was sufficient to make them reconsider the need for such changes in Eberron - and that when they did, they realized these changes are unnecessary.

So sure, James "heard" the fans. All I'm saying is that I think he then considered the issue and made what he believed to be the right decision - not that he felt compelled to to what they said. This isn't the squeaky wheel getting the grease; it's the squeaks helping to identify a fundamental problem with the wheel, at which point the grease was a logical solution. If you really think James, Andy, and Chris are all letting Shady314 direct their decisions, you've got a much lower opinion of them than I do.