D&D (2024) Jeremy Crawford: “We are releasing new editions of the books”

[Maxperson]

Have you ever played 4e? Or Pathfinder 2e?

There are reasons for why CR exists. It just wasn't done well in 2014 5e. (Or relied on other assumptions that most groups didn't use, like how 'Free Parking' ruins Monopoly because it keeps players in the game when they should be out, and the game speeding toward an end).

They didn't do it well(as in completely borked) in 3e, 3.5e, and 5e. I haven't played 4e or 2e Pathfinder, but I have heard that CR wasn't done well for 4e. I've heard nothing at all about 2e Pathfinder CR.

I have a hard time believing that they got it right in the one edition that I didn't play, then screwed it up again in the next edition.

 

[deganawida]

A lot of us prefer the personal nature of appearing in person to play and/or dislike reading PDFs during a game.

Speaking for myself, unless it is technical documentation, I retain far less from electronic media than I do from a physical copy.

 

[Remathilis]

They didn't do it well(as in completely borked) in 3e, 3.5e, and 5e. I haven't played 4e or 2e Pathfinder, but I have heard that CR wasn't done well for 4e. I've heard nothing at all about 2e Pathfinder CR.

I have a hard time believing that they got it right in the one edition that I didn't play, then screwed it up again in the next edition.

4e and PF2e have the same issue: challenge is based around a certain level of optimization (good build choices) and teamwork (coordination between PCs). The former is accounted for by doing its best to eliminate trap options, the latter by encouraging bonus sharing to improve odds of hitting, damage, and defenses. Both systems flounder with groups that fail to do either, often becoming TPKs or grindfests.

5e took a tact of challenge meaning "this CR probably won't kill X level PCs" rather than "this is a good challenge for X level PCs" which is a very different assumption. 5e assumes a "you must be this tall to ride" rather than "this is the appropriate monster to fight" tack, and it fails when PCs who are optimized and can punch over their weight limit meet DMs who think CR 2 creatures are challenging to level 2 PCs.

 

[Maxperson]

Speaking for myself, unless it is technical documentation, I retain far less from electronic media than I do from a physical copy.

I also tend to find things faster in a book than on a tablet. And the book is more handy than trying to sort through one of a dozen PDFs.

 

[Micah Sweet]

they probably will refine the encounter building rules a bit, but as far as CR is concerned this is it, because anything else would break compatibility.

I’d prefer a fixed encounter logic too, but they won’t create it for 1DD if it breaks compatibility.

WotC doesn't admit errors (the OGL Crisis being the exception that proves the rule).

 

[Chaosmancer]

Liking the rules is important, but a lotta folks are heavily invested, in terms of time and money, in 5e. So releasing a new edition would be fraught with peril, because people will feel like now they have to make a choice, as with previous edition changes. And if you are on DDB, like millions of us, it becomes even more problematic. Sticking with 5e makes all the sense in the world.

So to answer your question: if it's 6e, there's a high likelihood that I don't buy it. It would take a lot for me to walk away from my 5e investment, and 5e works well enough that I wouldn't switch even if I liked the new version a bit more - it would have to be head and shoulders better.

Look how many folks on this forum are still playing AD&D.

And the sirens and air horns the WoTC staff are screaming into saying that you can still use your old material that you invested in heavily means... nothing? The fact that DDB is going to reflect these changes means.... nothing?

Like, in theory I understand this dichotomy about "walking away" from 5e.... but literally every single official source has repeatedly made it clear that that is not the dichotomy you are being presented with. Will the 2014 Player's Handbook be different than the 2024 book? Yes. Obviously. But you can still use the information presented in the Sword Coast Adventurer's guide if you really, really, wanted to. You can still use Fizban's. You can still use Eberron: Rising from the Last War. The majority of your investment will remain... unchanged.

So why self-impose a dichotomy?

 

[Parmandur]

4e and PF2e have the same issue: challenge is based around a certain level of optimization (good build choices) and teamwork (coordination between PCs). The former is accounted for by doing its best to eliminate trap options, the former by encouraging bonus sharing to improve odds of hitting, damage, and defenses. Both systems flounder with groups that fail to do either, often becoming TPKs or grindfests.

5e took a tact of challenge meaning "this CR probably won't kill X level PCs" rather than "this is a good challenge for X level PCs" which is a very different assumption. 5e assumes a "you must be this tall to ride" rather than "this is the appropriate monster to fight" tack, and it fails when PCs who are optimized and can punch over their weight limit meet DMs who think CR 2 creatures are challenging to level 2 PCs.

Indeed, the correction to CR seen in Monsters of the Multiverse is that Mosnters are less likely tonoverperform their CR, and be more consistent in going down to a party of thst Level.

 

[Chaosmancer]

This is a good question: I bought the 5E rules to learn how to play the game. At this point, I have my 5E books put away while I'm actively playing a campaign. What I need are the character class rules, and they are online. I just leveled up the character I'm playing in Roll20 and I didn't need to crack a book.

When we get the next edition, if the rules are the same, I can play the old classes, and the new class material is online ... there's no need for me to pick up the books. That's the question I have: what's different and what's going to be the same? I initially thought there would be some significant rules changes to the game to prompt me to pick up the books. I'm still convinced we are going to see some of that, really, but WotC isn't showing much of that. Yet. If that's the case, I'd pick up those new books to learn the game. If that's not the case, if there aren't any significant changes to game play, buying the books is a harder sell for me. That's why it matters to me.

I still buy a fair number of rpg books and materials because I'm actively engaged with the hobby and care about it, not to mention having some friends who I can support by buying their books. Those are games I feel I have stakes in. I don't feel that same connection with WotC and haven't felt it for a while. In the past, new books would have been a no-brainer for me and I would have ignored this discussion. Now, I consider "do I need this to play the game? What am I getting for it?" And so I'm here discussing the edition.

But... none of that cares about the word "edition" at all.

You are literally saying that if the rules are the same and the new class material is online, you don't see a need to buy a physical book with the new rules and new class material. But that care nothing about "what edition is this game". The same logic applies to, say, Tasha's. All the rules are the same, all the new class material is online, so why would I buy Tasha's? At no point do I need to ask the question "Is Tasha's a new edition of DnD?"


The question of "are these rule changes enough to get me to buy the book" and "is this book a new edition of the game" are completely separate questions. Discussing the rules and the changes to classes is completely separate from "is this a new edition of DnD?".

 

[UngeheuerLich]

and I assure you that you are miss understanding what we are telling you.

Maybe. Maybe not. Probably I do. And I don't buy it sorry.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

I think the idea of CR needs to be dropped entirely. It's a broken concept that can't be made to work. What is a challenge to a 15th level group that consists of 2 wizards, a fighter and a paladin won't be the same challenge to a group of a fighter, a rogue, a cleric and a bard.

They need to teach DMs how to assess the group strengths and weaknesses compare those to a monster's strengths and weaknesses.

yeah 6 teams of 4 pcs made at 6 different tables will vary widely in what they can and can't do. The caster/non caster divide being the bigest offender.