jgbrowning, Rystil Arden, and Hypersmurf talk amongst themselves

[Hypersmurf]

Unless you are to assume that the spell has no meaning ever, you are directly lead to see that the exception is implicit.

Or, unless there's no need for an exception for the spell to have meaning.

Such as if the club's non-magical status is only a requirement when the spell is cast, not for the entire duration.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I was asking why you posed the question. I think it's a socratic one where I'm supposed to agree and then you'll say, "Aha, but X and Y are..."

Absolutely.

See Raise Dead.

-Hyp.

 

[jgbrowning]

Why is it still active? Because its duration has not yet expired. I don't want to sound facetious, but I think the burden of proof lies on you to prove that it isn't active.

What is the spell effecting? Wood? You're the one saying the heat metal spell can exist on a wooden object.

If I put the metal that's got heat metal on it into a sphere of anniliation, would the heat metal spell still be in effect? If I disintigrated the metal would the spell still exist? Just because the duration hasn't ended doesn't mean the spell is still there, just surpressed.


joe b.

 

[jgbrowning]

Absolutely.

See Raise Dead.

-Hyp.

That's a limitation of raise dead as demonstrated by resurection. Not proof that all magic "continues" after death (don't all spells end at death?), nor proof that dominate person continues although there is no person. Looks like magical disease can move through types [living] and [dead].

In other words, a magical disease is not a spell. Although a spell may create a magical disease.

joe b.

 

[Rystil Arden]

What is the spell effecting? Wood? You're the one saying the heat metal spell can exist on a wooden object.

If I put the metal that's got heat metal on it into a sphere of anniliation, would the heat metal spell still be in effect? If I disintigrated the metal would the spell still exist? Just because the duration hasn't ended doesn't mean the spell is still there, just surpressed.


joe b.

The spell targeted metal when first cast, a valid target. Then it began its duration. Suddenly the metal was turned into wood. The spell is still active, but now that the target is invalid, it doesn't heat up. But if you checked the area for auras or cast a dispel, you would still see the Heat Metal magic going on, as well as noticing the Polymorph. It doesn't just vanish into thin air.

 

[Rystil Arden]

That's a limitation of raise dead as demonstrated by resurection. Not proof that all magic "continues" after death (don't all spells end at death?), nor proof that dominate person continues although there is no person. Looks like magical disease can move through types [living] and [dead].

In other words, a magical disease is not a spell. Although a spell may create a magical disease.

joe b.

But you were willing to say that the magical disease was cured by turning into a giant assuming it was a disease that didn't affect giants.

 

[sullivan]

I hate to be the guy who keeps bringing up the logical fallacies, but you are begging the question as well. Your argument about spell's direct effect is only relevant if you assume that Smurf must be wrong about targeting.

I'd hate to be that guy too if i was bringing up Begging the Question in situations where didn't apply.

I was providing a third option showing the False Dilemma in Hypersmurf's argument. So, the list so far is:
1) the spell immediately fails after taking effect because the target becomes invalid
2) a change in the type of a spell's target does not have an effect of
3) normally #2 would happen, but implict in the functioning of the spell is that it's own direct effects on changing the state of the target have no bearing on whether the target is valid or not

I'm not saying it HAS to be #3, but it is reasonably possible. Therefore more work needs to be done.

P.S. That list above isn't nessasarily complete, but it doesn't need to be for my point.

 

[jgbrowning]

The spell targeted metal when first cast, a valid target. Then it began its duration. Suddenly the metal was turned into wood. The spell is still active, but now that the target is invalid, it doesn't heat up.

Under your logic— The spell targeted metal when first cast, a valid target. Then it began its duration. Suddenly the metal was turned into dust by disintigrate. The spell is still active, but now that the target is invalid (it's dust), it doesn't heat up.

But if you checked the area for auras or cast a dispel, you would still see the Heat Metal magic going on, as well as noticing the Polymorph. It doesn't just vanish into thin air.

Why not?

I think it does just vanish because it can't exist except on metal. I postulate that a change of state into which a spell cannot exist means the spell does not exist, not that the spell still exists and is dampered.

joe b.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Sullivan: You didn't phrase it as a third option.

Unless you are to assume that the spell has no meaning ever, you are directly lead to see that the exception is implicit.

The above quote is begging the question. You can qualify all you like, but that statement is begging the question.

 

[jgbrowning]

But you were willing to say that the magical disease was cured by turning into a giant assuming it was a disease that didn't affect giants.

Yes. The magic cannot exist on the giant because it is explictly stated as only effecting non-giants. Obviously as shown by raise dead the magic can exist on a dead non-giant. There's no conflict.


joe b.