D&D General Joe Manganiello: Compares Early 5E to BG 3 . How Important is Lore?

[Velderan]

See my comment above.

But I'll give you Han and Greedo. Nobody's perfect.

And you know the other thing about Han and Greedo? It's a change made in a way that you can't go out anywhere that I'm aware of and watch the original version without spending whatever to buy a used copy of the original VHS movies on the 2nd hand market. I don't have Disney+, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess Greedo shoots first in the version they have available on that platform just like he did in the DVD version I bought however long ago that was.

If you like the original Ravenloft lore, WotC supports that by making the old books freely available on DMs Guild. You absolutely don't have to use anything printed in a WotC 5e book, you're absolutely free to use the old lore or better yet, make up something that's tailored to YOUR players. I spent a ridiculous amount of time playing 2e Dragonlance and my group never once encountered Tanis or any of the other heroes because I changed the lore to have them not exist. They later released the 5th Age material and my group noped out of that one and kept playing in the setting we knew and loved the way we knew and loved it. It wasn't exactly complicated either. I realize from history that won't stop you from replying with a complaint because reasons but this fixation with lore being changed is pretty silly to me. How many versions of the Arthurian legends exist? Stories change, people move on. Well most people do anyway.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And you know the other thing about Han and Greedo? It's a change made in a way that you can't go out anywhere that I'm aware of and watch the original version without spending whatever to buy a used copy of the original VHS movies on the 2nd hand market. I don't have Disney+, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess Greedo shoots first in the version they have available on that platform just like he did in the DVD version I bought however long ago that was.

If you like the original Ravenloft lore, WotC supports that by making the old books freely available on DMs Guild. You absolutely don't have to use anything printed in a WotC 5e book, you're absolutely free to use the old lore or better yet, make up something that's tailored to YOUR players. I spent a ridiculous amount of time playing 2e Dragonlance and my group never once encountered Tanis or any of the other heroes because I changed the lore to have them not exist. They later released the 5th Age material and my group noped out of that one and kept playing in the setting we knew and loved the way we knew and loved it. It wasn't exactly complicated either. I realize from history that won't stop you from replying with a complaint because reasons but this fixation with lore being changed is pretty silly to me. How many versions of the Arthurian legends exist? Stories change, people move on. Well most people do anyway.

As I said, you and others don't care, and don't understand how others can care. Neither of us is going to budge.

 

[Zardnaar]

If I remember correctly, the novels et al (everything not the films) were officially at a lower level of canon. When Disney came in, the films, Clone Wars TV series, and everything they've produced since were and are at the same level of officialdom.

So an explanation was provided. That a given person wishes it were different or doesn't care at all doesn't change that fact.

They were. Basically they were semi canon unless George decided otherwise.

He drew on them for TPM for example and ignored it for TCW cartoons specifically Mandalore.

 

[Shardstone]

Would it have made a difference to you if 5e Ravenloft wasn't called Ravenloft?

Yes, it would have, but if it wasn't called Ravenloft that'd be cool too. However, I like that it is considered Ravenloft; I like seeing things in a new light, and I like the advancement of ideas. TTRPG worlds are collaborative efforts, so if we don't encourage innovation and change in these worlds, then we're shutting off the collaborative spirit that made them great in the first place.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes, it would have, but if it wasn't called Ravenloft that'd be cool too. However, I like that it is considered Ravenloft; I like seeing things in a new light, and I like the advancement of ideas. TTRPG worlds are collaborative efforts, so if we don't encourage innovation and change in these worlds, then we're shutting off the collaborative spirit that made them great in the first place.

People collaborate in established worlds by working together to add to what is established, not explicitly throwing it out and "collaborating" different ideas with the same proper nouns. You do that when what you actually care about is name recognition for sales purposes.

 

[Zardnaar]

People collaborate in established worlds by working together to add to what is established, not explicitly throwing it out and "collaborating" different ideas with the same proper nouns. You do that when what you actually care about is name recognition for sales purposes.

There's basically 3 approaches.

1. No change ir very slow changes.
2. Steady pace of organic changes.
3. Blow it up drastic changes.

3 hardly ever seems to work out. Movies that do it often flop.

90s star wars was mostly 2 of varying quality. 1 year of real time was around 2 years of star wars time for the main story with a time skip.

3 usually comes across as a cash grab. Using the name to sell a product that in some cases is only tangentially related to what came before.

And as always execution matters. Generally I hate number 3. Sometimes it can work. Perhaps with a cover of a song that changes the genre.

 

[Remathilis]

If I remember correctly, the novels et al (everything not the films) were officially at a lower level of canon. When Disney came in, the films, Clone Wars TV series, and everything they've produced since were and are at the same level of officialdom.

So an explanation was provided. That a given person wishes it were different or doesn't care at all doesn't change that fact.

The thing was, Legend cannon built of Legends cannon. Jedi Academy or Dark Empire doesn't make sense without Heir to the Empire. Multiple decades of lore and characters were wiped away in the creation of the sequel trilogy, and even more from the Old Republic has been destroyed in the new High Republic/Jedi Origin material. Heck, we're on the third version of how the Rebels got the Death Star plans?

It shouldn't matter that it's less official than the Episode movies, if you care about continuity not erasing what came before, Star Wars is the second worst example behind DC comics.

 

[Zardnaar]

The thing was, Legend cannon built of Legends cannon. Jedi Academy or Dark Empire doesn't make sense without Heir to the Empire. Multiple decades of lore and characters were wiped away in the creation of the sequel trilogy, and even more from the Old Republic has been destroyed in the new High Republic/Jedi Origin material. Heck, we're on the third version of how the Rebels got the Death Star plans?

It shouldn't matter that it's less official than the Episode movies, if you care about continuity not erasing what came before, Star Wars is the second worst example behind DC comics.

Never bought anything in the new continuity when it came to the books/comics.

No point getting invested if they can wipe it away again.

Outside of Lost Stars and the Thrawn nooks and Vader comics thy don't have a good reputation.

Legends isn't quite as dead either. Alot of fan stuff/mods use Legends the Canon stuff never caught on much.

 

[occam]

you cannot point to overall sales to show that a specific product is selling well…

The only thing we have at the individual product level is the bookscan data, and there we do have an indication of declining sales

View attachment 345875

You're cherrypicking. I can do that, too. Here's another graph from the same article:

Only the last year shows a dip (on a per-product basis; given that WotC has been releasing more products per year, the overall sales are way up), following the COVID-associated bump in sales. That is simply not enough to categorically state that WotC is suffering from "declining sales", especially given that 2022's number is still higher than every year other than 2021.

 

[occam]

Mega plot was great for coming up with fun adventure ideas. Now you get that spoon fed to you with the big adventure in the book.

Good example in the Dragonlance book. No real lore to work with aside from what’s needed for the adventure.

Just like the original Dragonlance adventures, then?