JollyDoc's Shackled City: FINAL POST [Updated 11/2!!]

[gfunk]

Actually a Bone Naga casts spells as a 14th level Sorcerer. Furthermore, it does not have the resources of a 14th level NPC Sorcerer. This, I think, is the main reason that it does not have a higher CR.

Unfortunately, the CR system works best for fighting NPCs. For instance, a 14th level Fighter without equipment is pretty useless. Spellcasters (esp. aracane ones) are a notable exception to this because their spells are quite potent even without magic items.

But hey, what do I know? I wasn't even there! :\

 

[Lela]

Dammit, forgot to subscribe to the thread when I replied.

For future reference, the "Subscribe to Post" has been moved just above the first post on a page (any page will work) under "Thread Tools." Look on the right side of the page.

htetickrt, it's only real weakness is magic arrows (DR). If your party doesn't have those, you may be looking at a TPK. On the other side, good tactics include using Forcecage on a pesky archer and taking full atvantage of reach. When the tank moves in, grapple him. My party's centaur paladin couldn't beat its grapple check (size bonus + str combination was deadly). Lastly, if the party starts running there's always Wall of Force.

It was a good session though. The party went through joy, terror, resolve, and, finally, pure terror. One of their best moments ever was when they realized they couldn't escape. All the tanks grimly lined up and charged. Very heroic.

Joachim, how high was the SR and DR? Not that I don't think CR11 might be a little low. Just wondering.

 

[htetickrt]

Doh! Equipment, should have thought of that one. Thanks, Gfunk.

As a DM, the reliance on equipment as a form of balance is one of the worst parts of the ruleset, in my opinion. Destroying their stuff is a whole lot easier than destroying the party with their stuff intact, so any rational enemy who cares more about winning that acquiring spoils (i.e. Irae T'sarran from CotSQ) would open or have a lackey open with disintegrations, a disjunction, or something along those lines. Yet that one act--even if the disjunction were nerfed to be temporary--would pretty much drop the party several effective levels in one go. Having DMed high-level PCs, Jollydoc, any advice on how to handle this?

htetickrt, it's only real weakness is magic arrows (DR). If your party doesn't have those, you may be looking at a TPK. On the other side, good tactics include using Forcecage on a pesky archer and taking full atvantage of reach. When the tank moves in, grapple him. My party's centaur paladin couldn't beat its grapple check (size bonus + str combination was deadly). Lastly, if the party starts running there's always Wall of Force.

Oh well, the party has an Elven Archer of Doom (TM) and a sorcerer with a billion and one disintegration spells. On to other possibilities. Thanks, though.

 

[ltclnlbrain]

When my party faced the bone naga, they dealt with it rather quickly and without much pain. The flying paladin wielding a holy bastard sword managed to flank it with the spider climbing rogue, also wielding a holy bastard sword. A few smite evil + Power Attack combinations later, plus some handy anti-undead spells from the cleric, and the creep went down without too much hassle. It didn't even get a chance to use some of its meaner spells.

 

[Joachim]

When my party faced the bone naga, they dealt with it rather quickly and without much pain...It didn't even get a chance to use some of its meaner spells.

Not so with us.

EDIT: When your DM rolls 50% miss chance, and the first 8 out of 9 (including Blind-fighting re-rolls), you are in trouble.

 

[Joachim]

Actually a Bone Naga casts spells as a 14th level Sorcerer. Furthermore, it does not have the resources of a 14th level NPC Sorcerer. This, I think, is the main reason that it does not have a higher CR.

A 14th level sorcerer is not immune to crits, sneak attacks, enchantments, necromantic effects, paralysis, stunning, and any Fort save that doesn't affect objects.

A 14th level sorcerer gets 1d4 hp per level + CON mod (as opposed to 1d12 per level).

A 14th level sorcerer does not have large size, 10 foot reach, DR 5/slashing or bludgeoning (not much, granted), SR (no idea, but couldn't be that high).

Granted, a 14th level sorcerer does get a familiar (woo).

Granted, a 14th level NPC sorcerer gets a Cloak of Charisma and a Ring of Protection, plus one or two decent items.

Granted, a 14th level sorcerer is not affected by Turning.

Two words, G.....Moon Calf. Not an unwinnable fight, by any stretch, and not even too tough for the party. But at CR 11? You can't seriously argue that.

 

[gfunk]

Hey Joachim,

Perhaps you should look at the 11th level Psion I made before I left. Even with an NPC item spread (hell, even naked) he could give the party a serious run for their money. Temporal acceleration plus astral construct with overchannel = many, many powerful minions with well over 100 hp and an AC of over 30. Plus they get many cool customizable abilities.

Furthermore, the encounter difficulties are highly situational. The Bone Naga was in a room with only a long corridor for an entrance, making spells like Evard's black tentacles, wall of force, and waves of exhaustion more potent with the existence of a chokepoint.

If you had fought the Bone Naga in an open field (like that Red Dragon from Zenith Trajectory), it would have been much easier.

 

[JollyDoc]

As a DM, the reliance on equipment as a form of balance is one of the worst parts of the ruleset, in my opinion. Destroying their stuff is a whole lot easier than destroying the party with their stuff intact, so any rational enemy who cares more about winning that acquiring spoils (i.e. Irae T'sarran from CotSQ) would open or have a lackey open with disintegrations, a disjunction, or something along those lines. Yet that one act--even if the disjunction were nerfed to be temporary--would pretty much drop the party several effective levels in one go. Having DMed high-level PCs, Jollydoc, any advice on how to handle this?

Well, it's been my experience that relying strictly on hp damage is almost completely ineffective against high level PC's. If an enemy want's to finish them off, it has to go for the insta-kill or insta-incapacitate. Anti-magic effects work well, especially if you've got a few brute strength, grunt henchman to lay some smack down while the practically defenseless-now-20th-level commoner/cleric stands there with his unmagic mace in his hand. Disjunctions are a nice touch, though truth be told, they've been used more AGAINST my NPC's than by them. That's one thing about high-level PC's...they've got all the loot and magic items they need. They don't have many qualms about negating the stuff a bad guy has. Greater Dispel Magics are very effective as well. Can bring down many of the buff spells high-levelers love to go into combat with. No-save spells are nice...Otto's Irresistable Dance, Force Cage, Waves of Exhaustion, just to name a few. Reality Maelstrom is also quite an equalizer. If you have a demon on it's native plane, just remember a Blashphemy can send half the party on a one way trip home to the Prime, leaving the remainder as easy pickings. These helpful TPK tips brought to you by JollyDoc Inc! Killing PC's is our business!

 

[JollyDoc]

When my party faced the bone naga, they dealt with it rather quickly and without much pain. The flying paladin wielding a holy bastard sword managed to flank it with the spider climbing rogue, also wielding a holy bastard sword. A few smite evil + Power Attack combinations later, plus some handy anti-undead spells from the cleric, and the creep went down without too much hassle. It didn't even get a chance to use some of its meaner spells.

Not to spoil the post regarding this, but here's basically how it went down. First, not a single holy sword to be found in the group. Not sure how many rogues go around wielding those, btw. Also, even if you did flank the naga with a rogue, undead are immune to sneak attacks. Anyway, as the module states, the naga has excellent hearing, and probably has at least one round to prep before the party arrives, beginning with casting Displacement, so all attacks now have an automatic 50% miss. With the group in question, the next spell was Evard's, which caught the sorcerer, the cleric and the paladin quite nicely, effectively neutralizing them for most of the remainder of the fight. Grimm, Tilly and Kiko took the fight to the naga, but one Wall of Force later, Kiko was cut off, leaving Grimm and Tilly alone. Bring on another Evard's followed by Waves of Exhaustion, and those two were handily grappled. Though Grimm periodically freed himself, a necromantic mist weakened him, while healing the naga. A steady barrage of Cones of Cold did the rest. In the end, the party was victorious, but it was a long, protracted fight. The naga had a wide variety of spells available, and a Concentration check of +21. I would venture to say that even with your paladin and rogue flanking it, it could still have dealt some withering damage, if played correctly.

 

[ltclnlbrain]

I would venture to say that even with your paladin and rogue flanking it, it could still have dealt some withering damage, if played correctly.

The naga had cast displacement before combat, but all of the party members beat its initiative and spread out so it could only catch one of them in its Evard's black tentacles. The wizard dispelled most of its protective spells on the first round, eliminating its miss chance. It got its necrotic mist off, though it didn't really do enough to offset the loads of damage it was taking each round. The wizard continued to pummel the creature with magic missiles while the paladin, cleric, and rogue proceeded to beat the thing to dust. Granted, the party had just rested before the encounter and were at full strength.

And the rogue carries around a holy bastard sword to use against sneak attack-immune undead.