JollyDoc's Shackled City: FINAL POST [Updated 11/2!!]

[JollyDoc]

It turns out "Strike on Shatterhorn" ended with another exceedingly interesting plot twist, just like "Thirteen Cages." The group is starting the final chapter, "Asylum," this weekend and I'll be there. Sweet!

Here's a teaser: Don't Rope Trick in the middle of the Bad Guys stronghold unless you are ABSOLUTELY sure ALL the Bad Guys are dead!

 

[Neverwinter Knight]

Here's a teaser: Don't Rope Trick in the middle of the Bad Guys stronghold unless you are ABSOLUTELY sure ALL the Bad Guys are dead!

That sounds promising !!!

 

[Neverwinter Knight]

It turns out "Strike on Shatterhorn" ended with another exceedingly interesting plot twist, just like "Thirteen Cages." The group is starting the final chapter, "Asylum," this weekend and I'll be there. Sweet!

That sounds even more promising!!! Please leave one of them alive...

 

[Tony Vargas]

the more we see with these modules, the more I absolutely have to scratch my head at the whole D&D CR system. At the higher levels, there are some real discrepancies between the difficulties (or ease) of encounters and the amount of XP's awarded. Sometimes, its absolutely boggling.

What game balance there is in D&D, even in 3E, which is better-balanced than it's predecessors, tends to fall apart at higher levels, or as you add more non-core material. Since you've got both, you can expect things will get a little out of whack. Those same balance issues aply to CR. Even in a core high level game, the choices (both tactical and in terms of character development) faced by the players multiply, so they can be much more capable of dealing with some encounters than others, even if those encounters are of basicly the same power level, compared to an 'average' party. Add tons of non-core material, and becoming too specialized in dealing with specific challenges or dealing with challenges in specific ways become even easier.

 

[gfunk]

Hey Tony, welcome to our SH. I do agree with you that addition of non-core content tends to throw everything out of whack including the CR system. The problem I have when I DM is that I find it necessary to optimize my monsters using various splat-book PrC's and spells. Unfortunately as you said, this can be very hard on PCs, resulting in frequent TPKs.

In this campaign though, the published challenges are generally quite significant to keep the PCs busy (especially the lower level ones).

 

[monboesen]

IMO it in many ways works like a arms-race. Once the players are allowed acces to third party material (or even stuff outside of the three core books) the DM can be forced to follow or to use higher CR encounters than character levels indicate.

But at real high levels (15+) there is no balance anyway. Its all about story (and combat boils down to initiative and preparednes).

 

[Lela]

IMO it in many ways works like a arms-race. Once the players are allowed acces to third party material (or even stuff outside of the three core books) the DM can be forced to follow or to use higher CR encounters than character levels indicate.

It was the other way around in my campaigns. I started using non-core books to enhance NPCs and find unique monsters. It was the players who had to start with the arms race. Which I was fine with, considering I had all the books already and know them better than the players.

But at real high levels (15+) there is no balance anyway. Its all about story (and combat boils down to initiative and preparednes).

And luck, can't forget luck. I've watched as a 17th level druid take down 23 spells of caster level 22 with one Greater Dispelling. We all, myself included, just stared at the player as the BBEG deflated. She missed one spell and that one was essentially used up by that point anyway. That series of dice rolling knocked prepardness right out from under the bad guys.

 

[Joachim]

Once the players are allowed acces to third party material...

We don't allow 3rd party books. We use anything that WoTC/TSR puts out, and that pretty much is it. We had a Freeport campaign going there for a short while, but we never really even used any of the PC options from those books.

Regarding our access to multiple sources, the only characters that use more than a handful of non-core materials are the two group tanks...Grimm and Ike.

Otherwise, we have a straight human monk (who has 2 feats from Complete Warrior), a halfling fighter/rogue (has Improved Buckler Defense from CW, but otherwise completely core-built), a straight dwarven cleric (who uses a few BoED spells, but all feats are core), a straight aasimar sorcerer (aasimar is in the Monster's handbook, so is considered a potential 'core race', and he has all core spells and feats), a dwarven Mystic Theurge cohort (has 3 feats from Complete Divine, otherwise all core), and a part-time human Red Wizard (again, in the DM's guide so all core).

Grimm and Ike are a very different story, but IMHO the construction of viable high-level party tanks is much more dependent on the options that the various sourcebooks offer. A Fighter 20 held to the core rules is at a much greater disadvantage than a sorcerer 20 or cleric 20 held to the same books. Shoot, a cleric 20 made for melee combat is easily head and shoulders over a fighter at beating things down. While it can be said that warrior-types are ascendant at the lower levels, it is little solace for the character that can't contribute past 15th level. So that character's player has to be like the guys working on the Six Million Dollar Man.

"We can make him stronger, faster, tougher. We can rebuild him. We have the technology (or cheesy sourcebooks)."

 

[Nightingale 7]

part time human Red Wizard?I thought you were good,upstanding heroes!Is he a kind of sponsor from a Thayan Enclave?You guys would be the best customers there

 

[monboesen]

We don't allow 3rd party books

Just to reassure, I was not commenting on your game in that post, just D&D3ed in general.

And I agree that a standard fighter faces incredible difficulty at higher levels without carefully selected magic items.

Even in my game (around 8-9th level) the fighter have had trouble with manuevering and at times even getting to the enemy in order to attack since the beginning.

It has only worsened since reaching multiple attacks. He rarely gets to make a full attack vs. real enemies (other than mobs) except for Giants or other big melee monsters that he actually should not trade full attacks with. Less melee inclined foes can usually find a way to limit his attack options.

I think that they are finally realizing that he desperately need more movement capabilty instead of increased attack or defense power.

And lastly a question related to your game. How does one grapple a beholder (a 6ft. diameter orb)? Or rather how does grappling affect a creature with no actual limbs (other than eyestalks). It str and size would allow it to fly even with a human monk hanging on it, but it would be slowed down. How did you handle it in game ?