Jon Peterson: Does System Matter?

D&D historian Jon Peterson asks the question on his blog as he does a deep dive into how early tabletop RPG enthusiasts wrestled with the same thing. Based around the concept that 'D&D can do anything, so why learn a new system?', the conversation examines whether the system itself affects the playstyle of those playing it. Some systems are custom-designed to create a certain atmosphere (see...

D&D historian Jon Peterson asks the question on his blog as he does a deep dive into how early tabletop RPG enthusiasts wrestled with the same thing.

Based around the concept that 'D&D can do anything, so why learn a new system?', the conversation examines whether the system itself affects the playstyle of those playing it. Some systems are custom-designed to create a certain atmosphere (see Dread's suspenseful Jenga-tower narrative game), and Call of Cthulhu certainly discourages the D&D style of play, despite a d20 version in early 2000s.


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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
You don’t understand the point that was made. A DM could give themselves the task of running a 5e adventure on the nostromo. All 2-3 players are rogues or fighters. It runs level 1-4, no feats, 3d6 character Gen, a handful of special rules like slow healing, sanity rules, no magic, massive damage, monsters real inner as alien horrors. Tech checks are Int tests because the alien ship is beyond the technical understanding of the part. DMG future weapons but limited ammo with drops. 2e Ravenloft style encounter design. A couple of magic items representing technological items - burning hands wand = flamethrower etc.

It...is...posssible...to...run...this...campaign. Without making up new rules, just be restricting options.
No, that's a D&D game in a strange setting. It is not a gritty futuristic sci-fi horror game, it's D&D characters in space, doing D&D things.
You may not think it has depth, or development opportunities or enough character options. But it is possible. You may score it a 2/10 for ahieving it’s aims, however I can legitimately call it a gritty, sci-go, horror campaign. Saying it is impossible is really a bit daft because not much is actually impossible if you really exercise your imagination.

Now Alien RPG or star finder or another system would probably do it better I’m sure. But then we’re talking about degrees of difference. Which is a value decision and is going to depend on many dependent factors - one of which is the preferences of the players.

That’s the last time I’m going to explain the point.
I strongly disagree it's could even be called a gritty futuristic sci-fi horror game -- it's a cardboard standee. This cannot handle quite a lot of the things that the genre of futuristic sci-fi horror encompasses -- it is, instead, a toy example of a very narrow concept that barely fits in the space (and more as a comedy than a gritty sci-fi horror). It's like saying that a skateboard can't be a NASCAR racecar and being told of course it can be, it's got wheels and can turn left, it's just a matter of degrees of difference. It's a category error.
 

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pemerton

Legend
I feel like "system doesn't matter" is correlated with preferences for ad-hoc GM resolution and games where the action resolution mechanics "come along for the ride", as you put it. The methods aren't really as important as the trappings, the class modifications and equipment and such, which are there to give a sense of place.
Right. I think that your "trappings, the class modifications and equipment and such, which are there to give a sense of place" is pretty similar to my "the main function of a PC sheet that says (say) Tracking +4 or Carousing-2 is not to provide input into a resolution framework but rather is to express the essence of the character, which the GM then uses as a guide to (i) moving the "spotlight" and (ii) deciding what happens."

For the same point, made in another recent thread that spun off this one:

If I want to railroad players through a scripted plot, generally speaking I find system doesn't matter unless I happen upon one of the rarer ones which totally doesn't support that type of play.

If I want them them to believe their 'decisions' matter - when in fact they don't - or I want them to collude with me in the illusion that their decisions matter - when in fact they don't - again I find system doesn't really matter unless I happen upon one of the rarer ones which totally doesn't support that type of play.

If I don't want to do either of the above, I find system matters greatly.
The terminology of "railroading" and "illusion" is perhaps at the harsher end of things, but the basic idea is the same: ad hoc GM resolution with the PC sheet, the trappings, as a source of colour and sign-posting that the GM has regard to.

As soon as we move to a different sort of play process - one where player decisions make a difference beyond the influence they might have on GM decision-making - then we start to look at how fiction is introduced, how declared actions are resolved, etc. And that's when we discover that (to use a Burning Wheel example) Circles 2 doesn't just send some abstract signal about how well-connected my character is that the GM might have regard to in making decisions, but rather in a quite concrete way permits me, the player, to initiate a sequence of play about meeting my (that is, my PC's) brother.

And so we see that PC build matters not in the sense of some vague discussion about class vs skill-based building, but in the sense of establishing what authority the players are able to exercise, and we find that resolution rules matter because they are the medium by which that authority is exercised.

Here, sblocked, is a good post from Vincent Baker that elaborates the point:

We collectively need to do character sheets and what they're for a whole lot better, if we want to accomplish anything. . . .

Imagine Thatcher's London. Imagine a person in Thatcher's London who has everything to lose.

That's a character. That's a whole, playable, complete character. If I ask you to speak in that character's voice, you can; if I present some threat or challenge, you can tell me easily how that character will react; if I describe a morning and ask you what that character will do in it, you'll know. Take ten minutes to think and that character's as real as can be.

Character sheets are useless when it comes to creating, describing, defining, realizing characters. Totally pointless, valueless, toss 'em in the recycling. A notebook is helpful for remembering things, or 3x5 cards or post-it notes, let's use those instead. Or let's use nothing at all, if we can remember what we need to remember! Probably we can.

This isn't (just) to Collin but to everybody: I can't teach you anything useful about RPG design if you persist in thinking that mechanical character creation or the character sheet have anything to do with the character at all. It's a misleading historical mistake to call the process and the paper "character-" anything. If you want to get anywhere, if you want to understand, if you want to create anything at all, you have to let that old error go.

So we start right here at this point: the character exists only in our minds. If we write something down about the character, it's only to remind us, to help us keep the character in our minds. The character cannot be touched by rules or game mechanics at all, under any circumstances, no exceptions. The character is pure inviolate fiction. This is fundamental and inescapable.

And from there we build.

I say, "my character, this guy in Thatcher's london, who has everything to lose, he goes to his lover's flat and convinces him to keep their affair private." You say, "y'know, I don't think that his lover is inclined to keep their affair private, do you?" And I say, "no, I suppose not, but my character is desperate to convince him anyway. In fact, he brings an antique revolver with him in his jacket pocket, in case he can't."

(Look, just look: the character has no "character sheet," but he's a whole character, fully realized. I can play him effortlessly.)

How do we decide what comes true?

We can simply agree. That works great, as long as we really do just simply agree.

We could flip a coin for it. Let's do that: heads my character convinces yours to keep their secret, tails he murders him instead.

Or y'know, that's a lot to deal with. Let's have a rule: whenever a character's life is at stake, that character's player gets to call for one re-flip of the coin.

On the other hand, isn't my character's life at stake too? His wife, his kids, his position, his money, his everything? Which should have more weight between us, your character's life or my character's "life"? Shall we go best two of three, or is that setting life and "life" too equal?

How about this: we'll roll a die. If it comes up 1 or 2, your character will refuse and mine will kill him; if it comes up 3-6, your character will agree to keep the secret and (unknowingly) thereby save his life. It's unequal because my character killing yours is less to your liking than your character ruining mine's life is to mine. It's unequal to be fair to us, the players.

Notice that we haven't considered which is more likely at all. We probably agree that it's more likely, in fact, that your character will refuse, so my character will shoot him. But that doesn't matter - either could happen, so we roll according to what's at stake.

Also, notice that we aren't rolling to see whether your character values his life in the face of my character's gun in any way. We're rolling to see if your character agrees to keep the secret without ever knowing about the gun, or if he refuses without knowing about the gun and my character shoots and kills him.

What we have here is a resolution mechanism with no character sheet. It treats all outcomes as equal, except in cases where it's "a character dies" vs. "a character's life is radically and permanently changed." In those cases, it biases toward the latter.

See?

Let's add a wrinkle. Let's say that over the course of the whole game, each of us is allowed 10 rerolls, no questions asked. Just in case we want another shot at our preferred outcome. Now we need a "character sheet," except that of course it's really a player sheet. We need to keep track of how many of our rerolls we've spent.

Let's add another wrinkle. Let's say that at the beginning of the game, we each choose a sure thing, a limited circumstance where we don't roll, but instead one or the other of us just chooses what happens. I choose "my character's children are in the scene." You choose "once per session, at my whim."

Here, this late, I've finally made a mechanical reference to the fiction of the game. I still haven't considered probabilities at all, and do you see how "my character's children are in the scene" and "once per session" are the same? They're resources for us to use, us the players, to have more control over what becomes true.

Maybe we should write them down on our player sheets too, so that if we forget or get sloppy we can call one another on it.

But so okay, that's pretty good, but how do we come to agreement about the two possible outcomes in the first place? Here's a rule: neither outcome can overreach the present capabilities of the characters involved. That makes sense; if my character didn't bring the revolver, I shouldn't be insisting upon "shoot and kill" as a possible outcome, right? Same with my character's skills and foibles as with his belongings. Like, if I establish that my character has a weak heart, that opens up some possible outcomes for us to propose; if I establish that my character is an excellent driver, that opens and closes some others.

Come to think of it, when do I get to decide if my character has access to an antique revolver, has a weak heart, is an excellent driver? Do I get to decide on the fly or do I have to declare it up front?

Either way, I should write all this stuff down on my player sheet, as I establish it. That way I know what I'm allowed to propose as possible outcomes.

See how this goes? The "character sheet" isn't about the character. Maybe - maybe - it refers to details of the character, if that's what our resolution rules care about. But either way, even if so, the "character sheet" is really a record of the player's resources. "Character creation" similarly isn't how you create a character, but rather how you the player establish your resources to start.

If you like, you can design your game so that the player's resources depend wholly on details of the character.

Or you can just as easily design your game so that the player's resources don't refer to details of the character at all.

Or a mix, that's easiest of all.

Whichever way, you need to establish what resources the player has to begin with, and you'll probably want to write 'em down. That's what's really going on.

(Also, because I can't resist a final comment: the Cthulhu Dark PC "sheet" does exactly what it needs to - it reminds us of what the character's job is, so that the player can roll an extra die in the pool when the character tries to do something that falls within his/her field of expertise. The idea that this is an incomplete character sheet, or that it makes all characters the same, is laughable.)
 

TheSword

Legend
No, that's a D&D game in a strange setting. It is not a gritty futuristic sci-fi horror game, it's D&D characters in space, doing D&D things.

I strongly disagree it's could even be called a gritty futuristic sci-fi horror game -- it's a cardboard standee. This cannot handle quite a lot of the things that the genre of futuristic sci-fi horror encompasses -- it is, instead, a toy example of a very narrow concept that barely fits in the space (and more as a comedy than a gritty sci-fi horror). It's like saying that a skateboard can't be a NASCAR racecar and being told of course it can be, it's got wheels and can turn left, it's just a matter of degrees of difference. It's a category error.
Ha ha, that is the funniest argument I’ve seen in a long time. They’re all just weird settings... every one. Yes a gritty sci-fi horror campaign may well resemble d&d in a weird setting. A weird gritty sci-do, horror setting.

Incidentally - I can absolutely run the three part Harlock’s Legacy trilogy for Dark Heresy in the D&D system. Easier in 5e than any other version. All it would require is a table willing to make conscious character choices to emulate that style and run with it.
 
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pemerton

Legend
Objection: that was me.
Here're the @Campbell posts I had in mind:
The technical bits that most of us think about when we think of system/game design matter, but not a whole lot. At the end of the day Warhammer Fantasy, Numenera, Pathfinder and D&D are mostly the same game. They are about a group of fantasy adventurers going on adventures played by players who are mostly trying to solve the adventure of the day. The process of play is damn near identical. Differences in design are mostly technical. Those technical differences do matter, but not like a lot in the grand scheme of things.

However take something like Sorcerer with its kickers, players who are expected to play individual characters pursuing personal goals, and GMs who are expected to frame scenes and build NPCs that interact with that core PC personal drama. Suddenly that looks a lot different. The process of play has been dramatically upended.

That's what System Matters is all about. It's about getting away from just designing those technical bits and really devoting time to designing the process of play.
From my perspective the difference between roleplaying games, at least one that are not as similar as say D&D, Pathfinder, Shadow of the Demon Lord and Warhammer is not like the difference between different types of automobiles where one is a comparable replacement. It's more like Risk and Monopoly or Poker and Spades. Playing different games provides an experience that you will never reliably experience in somebody's D&D game without altering the process of play.

Modern D&D is not some middle point. It's a specific game experience that is finely tuned to deliver compelling play to people that want that experience. That's a lot of people in modern D&D's case.
I'm sure I read your post too, but it hasn't stuck in my mind as firmly (sorry).
 



Jack Daniel

dice-universe.blogspot.com
Saying this without evidence is just handwaving.

Show me, using the PHB, how I would run a computer hacking against a pervasive, mind altering AI consciousness in VR.

Show me, using the PHB, how I would run a multi-ship space battle between multiple factions, including being boarded by eldritch horrors from beyond the rim of the galaxy.

Show me, using the PHB, what the time to travel to the next core system over is.

These are things that are pretty common in a gritty futuristic sci-fi horror game, and yet you cannot do this in 5e without iterating whole sets of mechanics or just ignoring the system and winging it.

That is not a compelling argument at all.

Show me, using the PHB, how I would get into a psychic duel with mystical entity on the Astral Plane.

Show me, using the PHB, how I would run ship-to-ship combat with triremes and ballistae.

Show me, using the PHB, how to travel to an Outer Plane without using a spell.

Sometimes you've just got to hand-wave, make stuff up, or create new game mechanics, even to do things that are definitely within the purview of D&D's genre. And for things that aren't in the presumed genre? You can re-skin. You can add. This doesn't change the system you're using into a different system.

Adding a Computers (Int) skill to 5e doesn't make the game suddenly not 5e. In fact, it's a trivial thing to do.

Using the same rules you'd normally use for airships and cannons for starships and turbolasers doesn't make the game suddenly not 5e.

Hand-waving interstellar travel and allowing the party to reach other planets at the "speed of plot" is no different from doing the same with a sailing ship and a distant port-town. And if you're not comfortable doing that—you'd rather measure distances on a hex-map—an ocean of stars is going to be little different from an ocean of islands. If you want accurate travel times for real kinds of ships (schooners, galleys, clippers), you need to do your research. And if you want to do the same thing in a sci-fi setting, it helps to know how fast Warp 5 is (125c in TOS scale, 215c in TNG scale), how fast the Millennium Falcon's hyperdrive can go (it can cross the galaxy in hours or days with proper astrogation), and the top speed of a Goa'uld Ha'tak (132,000c if you're curious).

The point is, you think 5e couldn't possibly do futuristic sci-fi horror? I say it'd be easy. (Feel free to move the goalposts, though.)
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Ha ha, that is the funniest argument I’ve seen in a long time. They’re all just weird settings... every one. Yes a gritty sci-fi horror campaign may well resemble d&d in a weird setting. A weird gritty sci-do, horror setting.
No, they aren't just weird settings. This is only true if you're main approach is to wing it or force story. If you're forcing story, then, sure, system doesn't matter as much because that's not how the game is actually being adjudicated.
Incidentally - I can absolutely run the three part Harlock’s Legacy trilogy for Dark Heresy in the D&D system. Easier in 5e than any other version. All it would require is a table willing to make conscious character choices to emulate that style and run with it.
Can you do Space Marines? Dark Eldar Dying Sun Battleships raiding an Imperium convoy defended by Gothic-Class cruisers? Or are you claiming that, if you limit the players to only certain selections of class/race/build that you can managed to pass with a specific adventure path? The latter is the claim you're making, but the former are parts of that grander gritty futuristic sci-fi horror settings -- the bits 5e can't do. What you're engaged in is called special pleading, and it's where you ignore examples that don't fit your argument and only focus on the few that do.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
That is not a compelling argument at all.

Show me, using the PHB, how I would get into a psychic duel with mystical entity on the Astral Plane.

Show me, using the PHB, how I would run ship-to-ship combat with triremes and ballistae.

Show me, using the PHB, how to travel to an Outer Plane without using a spell.

Sometimes you've just got to hand-wave, make stuff up, or create new game mechanics, even to do things that are definitely within the purview of D&D's genre. And for things that aren't in the presumed genre? You can re-skin. You can add. This doesn't change the system you're using into a different system.
This is ignoring the system, or making things up. That's not part of 5e -- it's outside of it. You're actually arguing my point that things like this require the players to add mechanics to the system, thereby changing it. You can, of course do this, and I've made the argument that doing so inside the genre and feel of the game and not extensively you don't end up with a new system. However, doing this and moving from D&D to gritty futuristic sci-fi horror requires massive changes to lots of the system - it's not a small deviation, or an extrapolation from already existing things. Your bullets above are all already present in the system, in some way, and you're asking for a change to existing features. The ones I listed aren't at all present in the system.
Adding a Computers (Int) skill to 5e doesn't make the game suddenly not 5e. In fact, it's a trivial thing to do.
Yes, ADD.
Using the same rules you'd normally use for airships and cannons for starships and turbolasers doesn't make the game suddenly not 5e.
What rules are these?
Hand-waving interstellar travel and allowing the party to reach other planets at the "speed of plot" is no different from doing the same with a sailing ship and a distant port-town. And if you're not comfortable doing that—you'd rather measure distances on a hex-map—an ocean of stars is going to be little different from an ocean of islands. If you want accurate travel times for real kinds of ships (schooners, galleys, clippers), you need to do your research. And if you want to do the same thing in a sci-fi setting, it helps to know how fast Warp 5 is (125c in TOS scale, 215c in TNG scale), how fast the Millennium Falcon's hyperdrive can go (it can cross the galaxy in hours or days with proper astrogation), and the top speed of a Goa'uld Ha'tak (132,000c if you're curious).
Ignoring system.
The point is, you think 5e couldn't possibly do futuristic sci-fi horror? I say it'd be easy. (Feel free to move the goalposts, though.)
Then, please, present an easy 5e rule change that allows for a gritty futuristic sci-fi horror game. If you could keep the changes to under 10 pages, that'd be swell.

Claims that things are easy without actually doing them are cheap and not convincing. What you're imagining are a few things that you have a quick solution to (one of which is "handwave") and failing to understand how the system would need to interconnect and change.

If you do find this easy, then use 5e to do the same thing that Monsterhearts does -- angsty monster melodrama that centers around adolescents discovering sexuality. Don't just handwave it!
 

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