D&D 3E/3.5 Jonathan Tweet: Streamlining Third Edition

The D&D 3rd Ed project was part big-picture vision and part a collection of individual decisions about rules, terms, and characters. In terms of rules, a lot of what we did amounted to streamlining.

The D&D 3rd Ed project was part big-picture vision and part a collection of individual decisions about rules, terms, and characters. In terms of rules, a lot of what we did amounted to streamlining. We removed absolute limits in favor of consequences, removed unnecessary distinctions in favor of important ones, and eliminated extraneous rules. Many of these changes seemed drastic at the time because they eliminated rules that dated back to original D&D and its first rules supplement, Greyhawk. The D&D-playing audience, however, accepted them in stride.

pic509490.jpg

Some of the work to streamline the game had already been done in the Dungeons & Dragons line (“basic” D&D or “BECMI”), and some had been done with 2E. Basic D&D offered a unified table for ability modifiers and ditched separate damage values for human-size versus large ones. 2E ditched level limits by race, level names for classes, and the awkward term “magic-user.” Both versions of the game left out attack bonuses by weapon and Armor Class, as well as the possibility that a beginning character might randomly have a suite of game-breaking psionic powers. We maintained all these changes and took these efforts further.

One overriding goal was to remove limits wherever we could. I was fond of telling players that in the new edition you could eat rocks as your rations. The players would look at me in disbelief, and I would say, “You’ll break your teeth and starve to death, but there’s no rule against eating rocks.” Likewise, there was no rule against wizards wearing armor. It hurt spellcasting, but you could do it if you wanted to. Ryan Dancey would say the same thing more succinctly: “consequences, not restrictions.”

We got rid of class and multiclass restrictions by race. At Gen Con the year before 3E released, we showed a roomful of fans an illustration of a halforc paladin, and they cheered. We also removed ability minimums and maximums for races and minimums for classes. If you wanted to play a ranger with a low Constitution, OK, you just won’t be as tough as the typical ranger. If a wizard wants to swing a sword, OK, you’re just not as skilled with it as with a quarterstaff. Was it important to say that dwarves can’t have Dexterity scores of 18? No.

We removed differences between characters that mattered least so we could focus on distinctions that mattered most. Small characters got their foot speed increased so they could keep up better with humans-size characters. Darkvision was defined as not infrared so that it didn’t implicitly give some characters the hard-to-manage ability to see heat. Druids didn’t have to fight other druids to attain high level. Paladins could have any number of magic items. Multiclassing and dual classing became the same thing instead of two quite different systems. Earlier, D&D balanced wizards by making them weak at low level and powerful at high level, but we tried to balance the classes at both low level and high level. (We failed. Spellcasters were still too good at high level.) We put all classes on the same XP table for rising in level. The original system doubly punished wizards’ hit points by giving them a lower Hit Die per level and making them lower level at any given XP total. The system also sometimes gave clerics more hit points than fighters because a cleric would be higher level than a fighter with the same XP total.

For me it was particularly satisfying to eliminate extraneous rules. We ditched percentile Strength. A big surprise was how little complaining we heard about percentile Strength going away. The fighter with 18/100 Strength was something of a icon, but players accepted the change. Percentile Strength is a rule that you don’t see other RPGs copy, and that was a pretty good sign that it wasn’t doing much for the game.

You can say the same thing for weapons dealing more or less damage again large creatures than against human-sized targets, a rule that we dropped. Personally, I loved getting rid of weapon damage values that came with bonuses, using plain dice ranges instead. A damage range of 1d6+1 became 1d8, which is pretty much the same thing. That way, every bonus added to a damage roll was a bonus that came from something other than the base weapon type—a Strength bonus, a magical bonus, or something else special. Ranged weapons lost their rate of fire. I hated the way high-Strength characters in 2E liked throwing darts (rate of fire 3/1) so that they could get their Strength bonus on damage several times. Characters became proficient in all their classes’ weapons rather than a few, and weapon specialization went away. In 2E, specialization gave the character benefits to attack rate, attack rolls, and damage rolls—effects that multiplied together to more than double the character’s average damage.

We dropped the XP bonus that characters used to get for having high ability scores. In original D&D, the only thing that a high Strength did for your character was grant them an XP bonus if they were a fighter. Strength did not affect attacks or damage. In 3E, a high Strength score did plenty for a fighter, and the XP bonus was cut as extraneous.

We let players roll Hit Dice up to 20th level rather than making them stop at 9th or 10th. In original D&D, 9th or 10th level was a sort of maximum, with spellcasters not gaining an higher-level spells thereafter. Spells of 6th to 9th level were a later addition. The system we inherited, however, went up to 20th level, and we let Hit Dice scale up to match.

In 2E, sometimes players wanted high scores and low rolls, as with thief and ranger skills or nonweapon proficiencies. Sometimes players wanted low scores and high rolls, as with THAC0, saving throws, and Armor Class. We established a system where you wanted high scores and high rolls: attacks, saving throws, and skill checks. While we were at it, we streamlined and rationalized saving throws and offered a single initiative system rather than the several systems found in 2E.

D&D is popular in part because of its legacy, so we worried that fans would object to all these changes. Overall, however, the fans ate it up. Part of the reason that we got away with big changes is that we took pains to make the new edition really feel like D&D, but that’s a topic for another essay.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Jonathan Tweet

Jonathan Tweet

D&D 3E, Over the Edge, Everway, Ars Magica, Omega World, Grandmother Fish

Zardnaar

Legend
Yeah. Kinda. Mostly gone. Though, as in 4e, it's as much a matter of multiple classes able to fill a niche as the niche being gone... just... fuzzier.

And the Rogue is fine with skills - just like everyone else - he just doesn't stand out until proficiency is high enough for the Expertise doubling to really make an impact.

That and you only get expertise in a handful of spells.

Clerics and Druids with guidance spam basically get expertise on all skills and are better at finding traps.

I don't regard being good at skills as a major niche in 5E as a lot of classes can do it in various ways.

By the time the rogue is the best at it due to BA other classes are good enough at it and a lot better in other ways being charisma or wisdom based, casting spells it dealing a boatload of damage doing it.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Tony Vargas

Legend
I don't regard being good at skills as a major niche in 5E as a lot of classes can do it in various ways.
I don't disagree. Expertise is the best candidate for standing out as being good at skills, though, even if it's not a raison d'etre like it used to be - the rogue is /also/ quite good a DPR, for instance, and the Bard, of course, also a full caster. :|
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I don't disagree. Expertise is the best candidate for standing out as being good at skills, though, even if it's not a raison d'etre like it used to be - the rogue is /also/ quite good a DPR, for instance, and the Bard, of course, also a full caster. :|

Rogues not that good at dpr more average.

Without feats they're better. Feats inflate the damage and make concentration rolls easy.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Rogues not that good at dpr more average.
Without feats they're better. Feats inflate the damage and make concentration rolls easy.
Yeah, I prefer to consider standard, w/o optional rules, myself, but I get that feats are quite commonly opted into.
And, really, is there that much variance between 'average' and 'good' DPR these days?
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Yeah, I prefer to consider standard, w/o optional rules, myself, but I get that feats are quite commonly opted into.
And, really, is there that much variance between 'average' and 'good' DPR these days?

The difference is roughly double to triple damage.

Mid level fighters and rangers can hit 40 to 60 damage reliability.

Level 10-11 they can Nova 100+ and semi reliably hit with 75% attacks.

Level 11 fighter action surge 7 attacks 1d6 +15 or more damage.
 

GreyLord

Legend
One of the things 3e did was that it NERFED Fighters hard and basically raised the Power Level of Casters.

A very simple thing they did away with was spell interruption and replaced it with Concentration Mechanics.
Spell Interruption was an great idea of balancing the LFQW idea, in that any wizard, no matter how powerful they were could have their magic interrupted simply by someone who was faster than they and could deliver a hit.

3e seemed to have been made for those who loved wizards and clerics and did not really think of any of the other classes nor the ramifications of what they did to empower spellcasters would have in relation to other classes. It made it so that you HAD to be a spellcaster to really be on par with others in the party who were also spellcasters.

OF course, you could play it differently (and we did) but it took a conscious action of the DM to counter the spellcasting rates and actions behind it or to add something to the Martials to give them a tip up.

This has continued in part with 5e. People talk about how much damage a Fighter "CAN" do but rarely does that idea that the Fighter has problems actually being a fighter (hit more often than others) still. The ramifications of the Martial Nerf from 3e still seem to holdover with game design today.

I would argue BA still hurts the Fighter Non-spellcasters and other Martial non-spellcasters (so, things like the Eldritch Knight might not suffer as greatly) in terms of not just hitting, but also with saves. Magic-users, even in 5e just target the weak save and are FAR more successful than they were or could have been in prior editions at mid and high levels.

This is the other side of the Fighter Nerf, nerfing the Save system. Sure, everything was united in one mechanic under 3e, but Saves were nerfed hard. They LOVED the spellcasters in 3e and wanted them to succeed in casting spells much more often apparently.

So...to all appearances, 3e actually buffed spellcasters rather than anything to make them weaker, and seriously nerfed anyone who wasn't a spellcaster. Unfortunately that mentality still exists with 5e, though it takes a bit more system mastery for one who is a spellcaster to truly rule supreme over the Martials (you have to know what saves they have and which ones are their weak ones, as well as which spells to use to exploit these weaknesses in 5e).

So, it's not as apparent in 5e (more system mastery is required to even see it at times), but it is still there. The heritage of the Spellcaster from 3e.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Interesting about the nerf to weapon speciazation.

Rangers in 2E dual wielded good offset for weapon specialization IMHO.

Paladin's had all sorts of buffs as well, not as good at dealing damage though. 2E Paladin was a bit weak.

BAB was another kick in the balls.

Beats me how it got through playtesting my fighter player noticed it very early in 3.0 had to blow two feats just to get the to hit bonuses from 2E which was human only level 1. That excluded the extra attacks. Similar thing with bow users 2 feats just to do what everyone could do in 2E except you soaked a -1 or -2 penalty to hit.

The classes also got 3 or 4 nwp each, 3.0 made it 2-8 skills. The only class that should have got 2 skills was the wizard.

Seeing saves scale badly was immediately obvious as well vd spell DCs.

Modern D&D also shifted the good weapons to higher levels. No more +3 frostbrands or whatever level 5 or 6.

Yeah and having every class level at the same rate.

They actually added restrictions to the warrior types and removed them from casters.

Fighter player 2.0 also noticed this when we played 2E again in 2012. Thief still sucked a bit so I let them use the thief xp boost from gold optional rules- 2xp per gp found.
 

Lucas Yew

Explorer
Plus the full-attack iterative -5/swing penalties, plus that 5 ft. sticky feet syndrome (why on earth do I get to move only 5 ft. if I swing my golf club twice or more).
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Plus the full-attack iterative -5/swing penalties, plus that 5 ft. sticky feet syndrome (why on earth do I get to move only 5 ft. if I swing my golf club twice or more).

Yeah that's what I meant by BAB.

They hated fighters with multiple attacks 2000-2014.

I allow a 3pp weapon specialization feat. It's an extra dice on a crit, reroll 1's and +1 to an ability score.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
A very simple thing they did away with was spell interruption and replaced it with Concentration Mechanics.
Spell Interruption was an great idea of balancing the LFQW idea, in that any wizard, no matter how powerful they were could have their magic interrupted simply by someone who was faster than they and could deliver a hit.

This is true, though to be fair I think it was an artifact of changing the initiative rules as much as any attempt to deliberately changing how casting times worked. Nevertheless, as you noted, the result was that spellcasters virtually always (save only for a few spells that had 1-round or longer casting times) were able to finish their spells on their action, before anyone else had a chance to interrupt them, unless by using a readied action or hoping that the caster forgot to cast defensively and so provoked an AoO (though, to be fair, failing a check to cast defensively meant that you lost the spell).

But that wasn't the only way that spellcaster weaknesses were reduced in 3E compared to previous editions.

  • Previously, spellcasters who were interrupted during spellcasting (not just by damage, but by virtually anything distracting) automatically failed to cast their spell. There were no "concentration checks."
  • Spells took a long time to prepare: 10 minutes per spell level for each and every spell, rather than being able to prepare everything in just one hour. A high-level wizard who used up most of their spells during the course of an adventure might need several days to replenish them all!
  • Divine spellcasters didn't get to pick what (higher-level) spells they received; they requested them from their deity. What they got might not be what they asked for, though this was typically done to make sure they'd be better prepared for the challenges ahead, as well as making sure that they didn't use magic that strayed from their religious tenets.
  • Wizards could only learn so many spells of each level, contingent on their Intelligence. This was a major limitation to a wizard's power, since it meant that they could only potentially know so many spells, regardless of what was in their spellbook. The numbers fluctuated over time (even within an edition) and this rule waffled between being set and being optional, but it was the hardest limit on what arcane spellcasters could do.
  • The degree to which material components for spells were assumed was less. While no one expected you to keep track of how much bat guano you had, there weren't "spell component pouches" that you could buy. If you didn't have the right tuning fork for where you wanted to go with plane shift, then you weren't going anywhere.
  • The cost for powerful spells was greater, in terms of using up years of your life. Unlike XP, those weren't really something you could get back over time (though this tended to favor demihumans, and was another reason, I think, why they were locked out of the higher spellcasting class levels most of the time). Magic items that restored youth were few and far between, and tended to have inherent risks in using them.
  • Other spells had numerous drawbacks built into them that made their use less casual. Polymorph spells required you to make a system shock check, for example, where a failure meant death. Likewise, if you botched your familiarity roll with a teleport spell, and ended up inside a solid object, then you didn't take some modest damage as you were shunted into the nearest available space. You died instantly.
  • Of course, being brought back to life required you to make a resurrection survival roll, where failure meant that you couldn't be brought back ever. You could also be brought back no more often than your Constitution score.
  • Magic item creation wasn't standardized. While the ability to do that was automatically gained with level, most items not only required you to have the requisite enchant an item and permanency spells (see above about limited spells per level) or otherwise permanently lose a point of Constitution upon completion. Likewise, all such items required special components whose provenance was up to the GM. You couldn't just craft whatever items you wanted if you had enough gold pieces.
  • As noted before, saving throws were determined by your target. While you might be able to apply a (small) penalty to their saves, a higher-level character would have just as easy a time making their save against a 1st-level spell as a 9th-level one.
  • Wizards didn't automatically gain new spells as they leveled up. You had to find all of the new spells you received after 1st level in the course of play, whereas in 3rd Edition they gained a minimum of two new spells with every new level of wizard gained.
Those are just off the top of my head, but they represent ways in which spellcasters gained power in 3E simply because of the things which had traditionally kept them in check were removed, presumably because they weren't considered to be fun. That's understandable, but judging from how big of a complaint "LFQW" became, the consequences of removing those limits in the name of fun wasn't fully realized.
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Remove ads

Top