Juggernaut..resurrected?

Egres · Aug 30, 2004

I forgot this:

From the Complete Divine:

The soul is beyond magic's power to detect or affect.

It's not incorporeal, it's not a ghost and it is not a creature of any kind with measurable staitistics.

I know,this isn't core,but i dodn't see it so weird.

Hypersmurf · Aug 30, 2004

Egres said:
My proofs are the one i have already pointed out.

Ah, but you haven't shown that someone's required to be considered a 'character' to have a 'character class'

-Hyp.

DreamChaser · Aug 30, 2004

sorry...I only recently noticed your request to only post over there...I will try to resist from this point on. But to be fair, I was a member of ENWorld long before I was at WotC.

DC

Methos of Aundair · Aug 30, 2004

sorry...I only recently noticed your request to only post over there...I will try to resist from this point on. But to be fair, I was a member of ENWorld long before I was at WotC.

DC

I have stayed off this thread as well due to hoping that the posters here will somehow see things differently or bring up observations and points in a different aspect than that on the WizCo board. Granted, I haven’t posted on the WizCo thread all day but both DreamChaser and Caelic have been doing such a great job I temporarily bowed out. I nearly fell out of my chair laughing when after I read the WizCo board I checked here and found everything word for word, other than towards the end with the additional posters. You all made my side hurt I was laughing so hard.

Hopefully the two threads do not become the same thread, and hopefully everyone will check both threads. Both are extremely interesting and fun.

Caliban · Aug 30, 2004

Egres said:
My proofs are the one i have already pointed out.

From the PHB glossary:

Class feature: Any special characteristic derived from a Character class.

Character[...]The words "character" and "creature" are often used synonimously within these rules,since almost any creature could be a character within the game, and every character is a creature(as opposed to an object).

Character Class: One of the eleven player character types(list of core classes).[...]
Character class may also refer to a non-player character class or a Prestige class

Creature: A living or otherwise active being, not an object

Your arguement seems to be that a dead creature is not a creature, it's an object. The rules do make a distinction between an object and a dead creature.

Certain spells have a target of "Dead Creature", not "Object".

So a dead creature is different from an object as far as spells are concerned.

A dead creature has all the traits of a creature, except the trait of being alive (because it now has the "dead" trait instead).

Hypersmurf · Aug 30, 2004

Caliban said:
Your arguement seems to be that a dead creature is not a creature, it's an object. The rules do make a distinction between an object and a dead creature.

Except he does have a quote from the 3.5 FAQ stating that when a creature dies, it becomes an object

(And the Glossary definition of Creature includes 'not an object', so by including the FAQ quote, a dead creature is not a creature.)

Of course, the 3.5 Main FAQ also says that if you use Weapon Finesse, you take a penalty to your attack roll to increase your AC, so...

-Hyp.

Caliban · Aug 30, 2004

Hypersmurf said:
Except he does have a quote from the 3.5 FAQ stating that when a creature dies, it becomes an object (And the Glossary definition of Creature includes 'not an object', so by including the FAQ quote, a dead creature is not a creature.)

Of course, the 3.5 Main FAQ also says that if you use Weapon Finesse, you take a penalty to your attack roll to increase your AC, so...

-Hyp.

The distinction may only be important when it comes to animate and raise dead style of spells, but nevertheless, the distinction is made.

I don't have a problem with dead creatures being treated as objects for most purposes, and a special type of creature for animate or raise dead spells. The rules don't see to have this problem either.

Which brings up an interesting question: If you cast continual flame on a corpse, is it wreathed in flame? What happens if you then cast raise dead on the corpse?

Egres · Aug 30, 2004

Similarly, there is nothing stopping you from casting Bull's Strength on a petrified person. They would gain a raised strength but would not be able to use it unless they were returned to flesh.

Except for that living creatures can still make saving throws.

That is not an arguement. It is statement of scorn toward the designers. It proves nothing and wastes our time.

Please,don't misinterpet me.

I'm not saying that the Hypersmurf's observation is silly or useless.

I'm only saying that IMHO isn't enough.

Why?

Look at the Improved Fortification feat in the ECS for example.

It says that you become immune to the extra damage from critical hits (that we have clearly shown means "not subject to critical hits" in the new wording of the ECS in another thread), and then it adds that you become also immune to sneak attacks.
Well,you know that not being subject to critical hits already grants you immunity to sneak attacks,and Keith Baker clearly replied me that this kind of useless things often appear.

Ah yes...active. Here is something that Caelic made a long and detailed argument on which you ignored...presumable due to a lack of ability to refute it.

Don't you remember that the same Caelic admitted that he thinks that this is a grey area and he can't say what type of creature a soul is?

Its argument about a soul being a creature doesn't show us how this strange type of creature can interact in the world.

It can only say yes or no as a result of a spell....is it enough to gave it a type?

And,BTW,your last sentence is what i was convinced i would never find in EnWorld boards...but it seems that i (and Methos too) was wrong.

Ah, but you haven't shown that someone's required to be considered a 'character' to have a 'character class'

Well,perhaps i'm too stupid to understand it,but i think that a character class is related to character,and all creatures that take character classes are characters.

Besides that,if i play a Juggernaut and i play a fighter-Juggernaut,am i not a character?

sorry...I only recently noticed your request to only post over there...I will try to resist from this point on. But to be fair, I was a member of ENWorld long before I was at WotC.

Please,don't misinterpret my words.

I wasn't try to ban you from this thread.

I was only trying to search for more arguments.

In fact,my replies here are also based on your replies in the WotC thread!

Your arguement seems to be that a dead creature is not a creature, it's an object. The rules do make a distinction between an object and a dead creature.

But the distinction is not so clear,IMHO.

Note:sometimes the dead creature seems the "soul"(as we clearly stated in the WotC thread.

And the body is only a corpse,an object.

But note the Raise Dead spell:

Raise Dead
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 5
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

What are we touching here?

The body?

But,wasn't the body only a lifeless object?

Is the body the dead creature?

I don't have a problem with dead creatures being treated as objects for most purposes, and a special type of creature for animate or raise dead spells. The rules don't see to have this problem either.

But the problems come when we speak of class features.

Do we have to treat a dead creature as an object for class features?

And what is this special kind of creature?

Does it retain its class features?

Caliban · Aug 30, 2004

Egres said:
But the distinction is not so clear,IMHO.

It's pretty clear, in my opinion.

Note:sometimes the dead creature seems the "soul"(as we clearly stated in the WotC thread.

*shrug* And sometimes it refers to the body. So?

And the body is only a corpse,an object.

No, it's not just an object. It's also a dead creature. It's not an either/or situation.

But note the Raise Dead spell:

Raise Dead
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 5
Components: V, S, M, DF
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: Dead creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

What are we touching here?

The body?

Obviously.

But,wasn't the body only a lifeless object?

You said that, not me. It's not "only" a lifeless object.

You are trying to create confusion where it doesn't exist.

Is the body the dead creature?

Exactly. For the purpose of all the animate or raise spells, it's not an object, it's a dead creature. (Or "an object that was formerly a creature.") In either case, it would have any class features relevent to the casting of the spell (since the spell only works on dead creatures (not objects), it treats them as creatures).

But the problems come when we speak of class features.

No problems I can see.

Do we have to treat a dead creature as an object for class features?

Obviously not, or they wouldn't have class features that only apply to dead creatures.

And what is this special kind of creature?

Does it retain its class features?

Any class feature that is relevent to it being animated or raised. No other class feature really matters at that point. (Except maybe DR or Energy Resistance, to make sure you still have a body to work with.)

Egres · Aug 30, 2004

I disagree Caliban.

From the SRD:

Gentle Repose
Necromancy
Level: Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Corpse touched
Duration: One day/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)
You preserve the remains of a dead creature so that they do not decay. [...]

This spells clearly states that the body/corpse and the dead creature are two separate things.