Unearthed Arcana June Unearthed Arcana: Druid Shepherd, Fighter Cavalier, and Paladin of Conquest

The latest Unearthed Arcana from Mearls and Crawford revisits four subclasses from earlier UA articles. "Part of the fun of playtesting is seeing how feedback and play can push a design in new directions. In this month’s Unearthed Arcana, we revisit class material that appeared in previous installments: four subclasses for various classes, along with Eldritch Invocations for the warlock. This material was all popular, and the revisions to it were driven by feedback that thousands of you provided in surveys. The updated subclasses are the druid’s Circle of the Shepherd, the fighter’s Cavalier, the paladin’s Oath of Conquest, and the warlock’s Celestial (formerly known as the Undying Light). One of the main pieces of feedback we got about the Eldritch Invocations is that most players didn’t want them exclusive to particular Otherworldly Patron options, so we’ve opened them up to more warlocks, tweaked them, and cut the least popular ones."

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Russ Morrissey

Russ Morrissey

Chaosmancer

Legend
A Hallow spell (dimensional lock) and a thin lining of lead built into the walls? It would be weird if they didnt have this.

In a world where your rivals can (and obviously do) hire roving bands of murderhobos capable of casting teleportation/ scying/ divination magic let alone having them on staff as permanent retainers, then yes, I would expect anyone capable of forking out the tens of thousands of GP for walls and hundreds each week maintaining those wallson a keep or similar to have both of those (basic) defences installed.

Even more-so in FR or Greyhawk or Eberron where magic is relatively commonplace (enough that whole battalions of magic users are fielded by kingdoms).

If YOU were building a keep in F/R wouldnt you hire a spellcaster for their professional advice on how to fortify it against magical threats?

Mage: 'We can keep out the enemy army and spies with walls my leige, but anyone with any magic can listen to everything you say, and teleport in here past the walls and murder you with a word'

King: 'Well that sounds pretty messed up! What can be done about it?'

Mage: 'Easy fixed m'lord. You'll need a few hundred gp in lead, an additional 1,000gp for rare herbs, oils and incense, and a freindly 9th level Cleric.'

King: 'Castellan; fetch the High Priest of Lathander. (whispers) also... what is is a level?'​

(I dont know why but the Mage was speaking in the voice of Baldric from Blackadder there).



So? They're vulnerable to death by having their head caved in by an axe. Donald Trump is vulnerable to a bullet to the head.

Try it and see what happens. (Dont actually try it!).

In DnD, the King just gets raised. Unless he cant afford a 500gp diamond for some reason. And then he hires NPC murderhobos (presuming he doesnt have any on permanent retainer on staff) to track down the Warlock with (scrying and teleportation magic).

Long story short, King lives, PC Warlock dies. Actions have consequences.

Again. I agree actions have consequences. I am not saying that they could kill people without consequence.

I am saying it would suck to have to lay out limits like "You have to be within 90 ft of the target" on this ability, because they keep casting hex on something they want to kill and plane shifting or teleporting or otherwise making themselves scarce. The ability works fine if they stay in combat with their allies and fight like normal. It is less fine if I end up with a team of mutli-classed warlocks who hex the enemies then bar the doors as they run and slowly kill the enemies without having to fight them. Then I have to a lot of extra work and nerf an ability that otherwise might have some cool potential uses.

I'd hope my players would be oay with a simple "Hey guys, let's not try and specifically break the game here"


To using the Hallow spell by the way. I googled and found a number, 21,000 sq ft for a castle. Thinking that will be a relatively small one. Hallow is 1,000 gp per 120 sq ft

That is 175,000 gp. Before whatever payments the priest asks for because that also takes 175 days (about six months) of their time. We can easily assume this ends up costing over 200,000 gold. In addition, a single dispel magic removes a 120 sq ft section of the Hallow, I don't know if anyone would be aware of it, and it would need to be replaced.

Going to the DMG, a small castle costs 50,000 gp and takes 400 days.

So... they could get their entire castle hallowed, or they could build 4 more castles.

Not saying they won't or can't, but that is a significant investment of funds to prevent Teleportation.


Its both if that makes any sense.

The biggest myth is that we all live in the outback. We're actually one of the most urbanised (read: live in cities on the coast near the ocean) societies on earth.

As an ex soldier that worked out there in the north and centre of Australia, I can speak from experience when I say it is one harsh place to be.

It is a gorgeous country in its own way though. I forget how alien it must look to everyone else. Who designed the Platapus anyway? What kind of messed up animal is warm blooded yet lays eggs, has the bill of a duck but the body of a beaver, and is poisonous?

Kick ass lifestyle over here though. Its like the States, but with no guns, the climate of LA, good wages, better beaches, free healthcare, and at least 4 weeks paid leave each year. Sucks we're so far away from everything though. Although 200 dollar flights to Asia are pretty cool.

If you ever feel like visiting drop me a line. You can do a guest appearance in our weekly 5E Campaign.


Thanks foe the offer, but I'm a broke college kid. Going to be a long time before I can afford to travel to another country. Unless I feel like driving across the border to Canada.
 

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Again. I agree actions have consequences. I am not saying that they could kill people without consequence.

I am saying it would suck to have to lay out limits like "You have to be within 90 ft of the target" on this ability, because they keep casting hex on something they want to kill and plane shifting or teleporting or otherwise making themselves scarce. The ability works fine if they stay in combat with their allies and fight like normal. It is less fine if I end up with a team of mutli-classed warlocks who hex the enemies then bar the doors as they run and slowly kill the enemies without having to fight them. Then I have to a lot of extra work and nerf an ability that otherwise might have some cool potential uses.

I'd hope my players would be oay with a simple "Hey guys, let's not try and specifically break the game here"


To using the Hallow spell by the way. I googled and found a number, 21,000 sq ft for a castle. Thinking that will be a relatively small one. Hallow is 1,000 gp per 120 sq ft

That is 175,000 gp. Before whatever payments the priest asks for because that also takes 175 days (about six months) of their time. We can easily assume this ends up costing over 200,000 gold. In addition, a single dispel magic removes a 120 sq ft section of the Hallow, I don't know if anyone would be aware of it, and it would need to be replaced.

Going to the DMG, a small castle costs 50,000 gp and takes 400 days.

So... they could get their entire castle hallowed, or they could build 4 more castles.

Not saying they won't or can't, but that is a significant investment of funds to prevent Teleportation.

I would think places like the audience room, the war room and the Kings bedroom would at least be so warded?
 

Corwin

Explorer
Are we really going to add yet another unrelated thread to the heap of stealth discussion casualties? The number of interesting topics that have been derailed to death by pages upon pages of that argument are already uncountable.

Please take that conversation elsewhere. I'm begging you, on bent knee.
A) Why is it okay to have half-a-dozen complaint posts about a thread being off topic? Aren't they also off topic?

B) It's not really a stealth discussion. Its about initiative and how surprise works on the first round. Stealth is just being used as the common example for how to make surprise happen. So calm down, please.
 


Satyrn

First Post
Are we really going to add yet another unrelated thread to the heap of stealth discussion casualties? The number of interesting topics that have been derailed to death by pages upon pages of that argument are already uncountable.

Please take that conversation elsewhere. I'm begging you, on bent knee.

The Stealth argument really does sneak up on us, eh?
 


R_Chance

Adventurer
5e distinguishes a special type of action called "Reactions" that you can take, once your initiative comes around, even during the first turn when you happen to be surprised. As has been pointed out, one of the features of the Assassin subclass requires that you not only surprise your target, but beat them on initiative. If that helps.

And no, again, the monk in my example was indeed "surprised". He did not see the sniper prior to the shot being taken. He will not get to take an action even though he happened to roll higher on initiative than the sniper. He can't choose to move and dash away around a corner before the shot is fired, for example. No, he cannot leap into the tree and attack the sniper first.


Your use of past tense here did not go unnoticed. Nor how that fact would obviously influence your second sentence. I've found a not infrequent cause of 5e consternation stems from past edition players coming to the table with their past-edition-colored glasses on.

I know what a Reaction is. When surprised you have no Actions that turn, but have a Reaction as that turn ends. At the end of the turn sounds definitive. A bit too late to deflect the crossbow bolt that is in you. It would allow the use of a Shield spell which would be in effect before the next round of combat. Maybe I'm stepping in to some argument I haven't followed about surprise (not that this would surprise me :) ) but it seems to negate some uses of a Reaction. Maybe I'm being too sequential about it. I just don't see something happening at the end of a turn effecting things which happen earlier during the turn. It could be argued that the bolt is fired and in flight and then it's deflected but that is parsing those seconds pretty tightly. Next thing you know we'll be arguing the speed of a crossbow bolt and the distance involved...

And yes, I started playing D&D in 1974. Give it another month and it'll be 43 years. I'm old.
 

daviddalbec

Explorer
Uhh, no. The Paladin's spell slots do not recover on a short rest.

The Warlock can also maintain concentration on Hex through multiple fights and multiple rests, so it's not like they need to spend a slot every combat to have their Eldritch blast out damaging the paladin's extra attacks.

The Paladin will usually have the unenviable position of spending the first turn of many fights casting Bless. They can't just drop all of their spells on smites when they are such an important support class. If your DM is using kiddy gloves, maybe they can get away with it. But Bless is the biggest DPR boost for most parties.
Maintaining Hex through multiple encounters is tough when you are a melee bladelock without con saves. Even with +3 con, you're losing that spell (cast at max warlock spell slot)in the first combat. If you're a hexblade you mostly should avoie using concentration spells IMO.
 

Corwin

Explorer
I know what a Reaction is. When surprised you have no Actions that turn, but have a Reaction as that turn ends. At the end of the turn sounds definitive. A bit too late to deflect the crossbow bolt that is in you. It would allow the use of a Shield spell which would be in effect before the next round of combat. Maybe I'm stepping in to some argument I haven't followed about surprise (not that this would surprise me :) ) but it seems to negate some uses of a Reaction. Maybe I'm being too sequential about it. I just don't see something happening at the end of a turn effecting things which happen earlier during the turn. It could be argued that the bolt is fired and in flight and then it's deflected but that is parsing those seconds pretty tightly. Next thing you know we'll be arguing the speed of a crossbow bolt and the distance involved...
You are clearly confusing 'turn' for 'round'. I can see why it would be hard to grok given that.

And yes, I started playing D&D in 1974. Give it another month and it'll be 43 years. I'm old.
Me too! I don't have a problem grokking it, though. I try not to look at 5e through previous-edition-colored glasses. It helps.
 


R_Chance

Adventurer
You are clearly confusing 'turn' for 'round'. I can see why it would be hard to grok given that.


Me too! I don't have a problem grokking it, though. I try not to look at 5e through previous-edition-colored glasses. It helps.



*sigh* It's a bit odd. The PHB (page 189) says:

"If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends."


I wasn't sure if you could react at the end of your turn or not at all until your next turn when you would get the ordinary range of actions / movement / reactions.
Then Sage Advice says:

"A surprised creature can’t move or take an action or a reaction until its first turn ends (remember that being unable to take an action also means you can’t take a bonus action). In effect, a surprised creature skips its first turn in a fight."

Now, I know a reaction can take place during another characters turn, but does this mean no reactions at all. No reactions until after your turn ends but after is OK with you getting / not getting a reaction based on your turn order (during another characters turn). Or what. I don't find it as clear as you. Is this something they have otherwise ruled on? Or am I making this more complex than it is? Or stick with my own view? :)
 
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Satyrn

First Post
Now, I know a reaction can take place during another characters turn, but does this mean . . . No reactions until after your turn ends but after is OK with you getting / not getting a reaction based on your turn order (during another characters turn).
This, if I understand you, is the way I read it.
 

I know what a Reaction is. When surprised you have no Actions that turn, but have a Reaction as that turn ends. At the end of the turn sounds definitive. A bit too late to deflect the crossbow bolt that is in you. It would allow the use of a Shield spell which would be in effect before the next round of combat. Maybe I'm stepping in to some argument I haven't followed about surprise (not that this would surprise me :) ) but it seems to negate some uses of a Reaction. Maybe I'm being too sequential about it. I just don't see something happening at the end of a turn effecting things which happen earlier during the turn. It could be argued that the bolt is fired and in flight and then it's deflected but that is parsing those seconds pretty tightly. Next thing you know we'll be arguing the speed of a crossbow bolt and the distance involved...

And yes, I started playing D&D in 1974. Give it another month and it'll be 43 years. I'm old.

A round is a period of time lasting around 6 seconds.

A turn is when a creatures gets to resolve their actions in that round. A round with 5 combatants features 5 seperate turns.

Actions are more or less simultaneous in a round (turn sequence representing a fraction of a second advantage in going first). While to us, a creature has its turn, moves its speed and then attacks while everyone else is standing still, to the actual combatants everyone is moving and fighting at the same time.

If you move 30' and cast a spell, and then the Orc goes next and moves 30' up to you and attacks you, both you and the Orc were moving at more or less the same time (him chasing you to the door).

Beating someone on an oppsed Dexterity check (which is what initiative is) while surprised means that your turn comes first (even though you cant take actions or move during it) but you will be able to take reactions against the creature that ambushes you (you're fast enough to deflect the crossbow bolt, or cast your shield spell at the last second) when they have their turn later in the round.
 

This, if I understand you, is the way I read it.

You're reading it wrong.

A surprised creature can take no actions (nor can it move) on its first turn (during round one) but once that first turn ends, it can take reactions normally.

Example:

A 5th level Monk (Dex 16) is surprised by a hidden Orc Archer who has just declared a crossbow attack at the Monk, triggering initiative (before any attack rolls are made). The DM calls for initiative.

The Monk rolls a 15 for initiative, the Orc rolls a 10.

Round 1 starts:

The Monk has his first turn. He is surprised and can take no actions or move. His turn ends. He can now take reactions.

The Orc has his first turn. He uses the Attack action to resolve his attack with his crossbow. He has advantage on his attack roll on account of being hidden, and rolls the d20 twice, hitting the Monk (and revealing himself). He deals 1d10+2 (the Orcs Dex mod) damage for a total of 8 points of piercing damage.

The Monk uses Defect Missiles class feature as his reaction. (At the last second his awesome monkiness and super dexterity kick in like a bad-ass as his hand snaps out like lightning to catch the bolt like Mr Myagi catching flies with chopsticks). He reduces the crossbow damage by 1d10+8 (his monk level plus Dex mod).

In this case he reduces the damage to 0, so as part of the same reaction, he also spends a Ki point and hurls the bolt back at the Orc like a total boss. He hits the Orc dealing 1d6+3 (the crossbow bolt is now a Monk weapon) points of damage to the Orc.

The Orc wants to go back into hiding, but cant as he has already used his action so he cant take the Hide action. He instead uses his movement to duck behind total cover.

Round 1 ends.

Note that the Monk has now spent all of six seconds standing around like an idiot, taking no actions or moving. This is because he was surprised (caught with his pants down) on round one, allowing the free Orc to get a shot off at him.

He was however quick enough to use a reaction in response to the attack (determined by the opposed Dexterity check vs the Orc at the start of the combat called 'initiative'), and due to being a Monk, he also happened to have an applicable reaction to take (deflect missiles).
 
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Hussar

Legend
And, just to add to [MENTION=6788736]Flamestrike[/MENTION]'s point, if the initiative order were reversed, the Monk would actually not get his deflect missiles. Forex: The Orc has Initiative 15 and the Monk 10.

Orc shoots monk, hitting monk and revealing himself.
Monk takes turn, doing nothing (it's still the surprise round)
End of Round.
New Round
Orc shoots monk. This time the monk could attempt to deflect missiles, since he has had a turn during the surprise round and is no longer surprised.
Monk goes as normal.
 

Corwin

Explorer
This is why I'm a big fan of how 5e handles surprise. It has some subtle nuances just under the surface that distinguish it from the way the last few editions did it. I think its actually kinda elegant.
 

Satyrn

First Post
You're reading it wrong . . .
No, I'm not. I mean, not if you aren't, anyway

Where I might be wrong - and I pointed out that I might be - is what I understood the fellow I quoted as saying in the bit I was quoting. He wasn't very clear (with a bit of a jumbled run on sentence), but after sorting through what he was trying to say, I figured he was saying the same thing as you.
 

we revisit class material that appeared in previous installments... this material was all popular....
The updated subclasses are the druid’s Circle of the Shepherd, the fighter’s Cavalier, the paladin’s Oath of Conquest, and the warlock’s Celestial (formerly known as the Undying Light).
Y'know, if they keep going for just the 'most popular,' they're going to end up with the least-offensive, least-interesting, lowest-common-denominator. :sigh: To really deliver on the promise of supporting more styles than all past editions (including those of all past editions), they've got to tackle stuff with narrower, but genuine, appeal, as well (even where there's equally narrow, intense, dislike). Because, well: options - things some may like and others not.
 

gyor

Legend
Y'know, if they keep going for just the 'most popular,' they're going to end up with the least-offensive, least-interesting, lowest-common-denominator. :sigh: To really deliver on the promise of supporting more styles than all past editions (including those of all past editions), they've got to tackle stuff with narrower, but genuine, appeal, as well (even where there's equally narrow, intense, dislike). Because, well: options - things some may like and others not.

What play style do you have in mind?
 

R_Chance

Adventurer
And thanks to Corwin, Flamestrike, Satyrn and Hussar (among others) for straightening surprise out in my mind. I appreciate it. It makes sense now, which is why I read / post on message boards. Seeing others thoughts and interpretations and parsing their meaning helps you penetrate your own preconceptions and come to a conclusion.
 
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