Unearthed Arcana June Unearthed Arcana: Druid Shepherd, Fighter Cavalier, and Paladin of Conquest

The latest Unearthed Arcana from Mearls and Crawford revisits four subclasses from earlier UA articles. "Part of the fun of playtesting is seeing how feedback and play can push a design in new directions. In this month’s Unearthed Arcana, we revisit class material that appeared in previous installments: four subclasses for various classes, along with Eldritch Invocations for the warlock. This material was all popular, and the revisions to it were driven by feedback that thousands of you provided in surveys. The updated subclasses are the druid’s Circle of the Shepherd, the fighter’s Cavalier, the paladin’s Oath of Conquest, and the warlock’s Celestial (formerly known as the Undying Light). One of the main pieces of feedback we got about the Eldritch Invocations is that most players didn’t want them exclusive to particular Otherworldly Patron options, so we’ve opened them up to more warlocks, tweaked them, and cut the least popular ones."

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[pukunui]

That's odd. How does that work with stealth?

To clarify: Say my target isn't aware they are being attacked. Hypothetically speaking, let's say I'm a sniper using a crossbow. Attempting to pull the trigger = roll initiative?

Technically yes, although I know plenty of DMs who would just give you that first attack for free and *then* ask for initiative rolls.

 

[Argyle King]

Technically yes, although I know plenty of DMs who would just give you that first attack for free and *then* ask for initiative rolls.

That's how I've typically seen it played. The RAW way is a bit strange in a lot of normal combat situations.

 

[Corwin]

That's odd. How does that work with stealth?

Pretty neatly, if you ask me. See below...

To clarify: Say my target isn't aware they are being attacked. Hypothetically speaking, let's say I'm a sniper using a crossbow. Attempting to pull the trigger = roll initiative?

So you'd prefer the monk not have even the slimmest chance to feel that incoming crossbow bolt, and at the last second bat it away? Or the sorcerer to instinctively bring up a shield spell just as she turns to spot the bolt mid flight straight for her? These things seem pretty cinematically standard fare to me. And the 5e rules, as written, allow for those cool moments. The method you say you tend to favor would not.

The monk or sorcerer in those examples are still losing out on their turn for the round, because the sniper was stealthy enough to avoid detection. So surprise still happened. They were just quick enough to have a chance to react to the sniper. Which is a subtly cool, IMO, part of how 5e handles surprise.

 

[R_Chance]

So you'd prefer the monk not have even the slimmest chance to feel that incoming crossbow bolt, and at the last second bat it away? Or the sorcerer to instinctively bring up a shield spell just as she turns to spot the bolt mid flight straight for her? These things seem pretty cinematically standard fare to me. And the 5e rules, as written, allow for those cool moments. The method you say you tend to favor would not.

The monk or sorcerer in those examples are still losing out on their turn for the round, because the sniper was stealthy enough to avoid detection. So surprise still happened. They were just quick enough to have a chance to react to the sniper. Which is a subtly cool, IMO, part of how 5e handles surprise.

What you're describing sounds like they weren't surprised to me. It just sounds like they lost initiative but were still able to act. Surprise was always a bit more than that. And should be, imho of course.

 

[Argyle King]

Pretty neatly, if you ask me. See below...


So you'd prefer the monk not have even the slimmest chance to feel that incoming crossbow bolt, and at the last second bat it away? Or the sorcerer to instinctively bring up a shield spell just as she turns to spot the bolt mid flight straight for her? These things seem pretty cinematically standard fare to me. And the 5e rules, as written, allow for those cool moments. The method you say you tend to favor would not.

The monk or sorcerer in those examples are still losing out on their turn for the round, because the sniper was stealthy enough to avoid detection. So surprise still happened. They were just quick enough to have a chance to react to the sniper. Which is a subtly cool, IMO, part of how 5e handles surprise.

The monk is a unique case which is already covered by their class abilities. The same may also be true of the sorcerer with some spells.

Outside of that and baring a miraculous perception, I'm unsure how they're even aware of the attack.

Sure, there are some examples like Carlos Hathcock supposedly seeing the glint of an enemy scope, but it's somewhat odd as a normal rule.

 

[Corwin]

What you're describing sounds like they weren't surprised to me. It just sounds like they lost initiative but were still able to act.

5e distinguishes a special type of action called "Reactions" that you can take, once your initiative comes around, even during the first turn when you happen to be surprised. As has been pointed out, one of the features of the Assassin subclass requires that you not only surprise your target, but beat them on initiative. If that helps.

And no, again, the monk in my example was indeed "surprised". He did not see the sniper prior to the shot being taken. He will not get to take an action even though he happened to roll higher on initiative than the sniper. He can't choose to move and dash away around a corner before the shot is fired, for example. No, he cannot leap into the tree and attack the sniper first.

Surprise was always a bit more than that. And should be, imho of course.

Your use of past tense here did not go unnoticed. Nor how that fact would obviously influence your second sentence. I've found a not infrequent cause of 5e consternation stems from past edition players coming to the table with their past-edition-colored glasses on.

 

[Corwin]

The monk is a unique case which is already covered by their class abilities. The same may also be true of the sorcerer with some spells.

Outside of that and baring a miraculous perception, I'm unsure how they're even aware of the attack.

But that's the whole point. Given that you have to win initiative, and can only use a reaction (if you even have one), we are only talking about the exceptions anyway. Otherwise, what's the difference? If a particular character has no beneficial reaction option to help them in that scenario, and/or lost initiative, they effectively do nothing the first round. Just like they would have in the way you say you'd do it. No?

My argument is for the exceptions. For things like that quintessential example of the lightning fast monk catching the sniper's bolt just before it hits. Because that's something we've occasionally seen in action movies, or read in adventure books. It requires two things to happen in the character's favor. 1) They beat their would-be assassin on initiative. And 2) they have an applicable reaction that helps them mitigate whatever just happened.

 

[Argyle King]

I don't feel the argument helps highlight those exceptions. All of that is still possible regardless.

On the other hand, the shooter's abilities might not work for a reason which is slightly odd to justify.

I'm away from books at the moment, but it's come to my attention that I need to re-read the rules.

Admittedly, some of my own struggle comes from playing other games in which the situation would be handled a lot differently. 5th Edition D&D is a rule set that I don't have as much familiarity with.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That's odd. How does that work with stealth?

To clarify: Say my target isn't aware they are being attacked. Hypothetically speaking, let's say I'm a sniper using a crossbow. Attempting to pull the trigger = roll initiative?

It's been a matter of a lot of debate. That's why I didn't respond to Corwin, didn't want to derail the thread

^^^ See Above^^^^

 

[Corwin]

I don't feel the argument helps highlight those exceptions.

Who's argument? Mine? I thought I was pretty thorough in detailing why/how they are exceptions.

All of that is still possible regardless.

What is still possible? Using your version of surprise? How so? Maybe I'm not understanding what it is you are saying you would do differently.

On the other hand, the shooter's abilities might not work for a reason which is slightly odd to justify.

Just as the reacting character's abilities might not work. I guess I just don't see the distinction. <shrug>