Just Not Feelin' It...

Darth Shoju said:
Well the next-gen consoles are at least backwards-compatible (mostly). That, plus video games don't generally have as much replay/re-use value as RPG books so it is often seen as less of a waste if you have played your old games already.

In addition, the advances in console technology are quantifiable. i am not sure the same can be said for the advances in D&D design and development.

Not that better graphics and faster processors make for better games on consoles (or computers -- I'd give 10 copies of NWN for 1 copy of Fallout or Baldur's Gate any day).
 

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I can't say I'm exactly feeling 4E yet. I'm definitely bummed about impending obsolescence of a lot of my crunch-heavy books.

I like the work of many of the folks working on 4E, but I haven't really seen anything to get excited about yet.

So, yeah, not really feelin' it. Then again, I didn't really get in to the hype around 3E.
 

I dunno, I'm not feeling much, if any, bite from "price gouging". They're a company. They need to stay in business. I pay much more for other entertainment venues in a given 5yr to 10yr. I bought the 3.0 books when they came out and I hadn't really bought a large amount of 3.0 material before 3.5 came out. I usually like to adhere close to "core", so I hadn't plopped down for the splats and had a few adventures. When 3.5 came out I found it bundled on Amazon for such a steep bargain that I got the core three for the equivalent of 12 bucks apiece.

Since then I've bought a few books, some splats, and things like the PHBII and DMGII, and a few adventures.

But, looking at what I've spent on D&D in the last five years, it is less than if I took my wife and myself to the movies once every three months for the last five years. It is less than I've spent on World of Warcraft for my wife and myself, the expansion, and two accounts over the last few years.

In total, I feel I GOT my entertainment dollar out of 3.0 and 3.5. If I'm willing to spend 20 bucks for my wife and myself to see a 1.5-2hr film, I think I can fork out for a new edition, oh, every 7 years, give or take.

Personally, I'm rather excited. I like 3.5, but having played it for a long time, I recognize that it has flaws. We play a weekly game that has run from 1st to 16th level and I recognize that, currently, there are tons of things about high level play that We Just Don't Like. We don't like that we know when the GM hasn't handed out the "right" amount of treasure because appropriate CR encounters in the module are too hard. We don't like that high level combat takes forever. We don't like that if the melee combatants get disarmed or sundered, they lose half their effectiveness because so much is tied into their million-dollar main weapon. I don't like that the guy playing the fighter feels underpowered in five out of six combats. I don't like that, in high level play, we average, oh, at least one "death" every combat (and that we utterly rely on the spell Delay Death to avoid round-robin ressurection level loss) ... and I seriously hope they change that. I don't like that we have to consult a book about three times a night to remember small points of various rules.

And I have quite a few friends that would like the D&D game table feature of D&D Insider. That plus Dungeon plus Dragon might be worth my $10 a month. I currently pay $15 a month for World of Warcraft and, honestly, I'd rather be playing D&D with that money but I have yet to find a stable online real-time client.

My only complaint about 4E, really, is that ... I'm not playtesting it. Aaarrggghhh. I'm a rules design JUNKY and it's going to slaughter me for the next eight months trying to piece together what it looks like.

What would tick me off is if 4E weren't a significant improvement and change from 3.5.

--fje
 


I wonder why this sentence:

That's just rude

Usually comes followed by this one:

is just stupid

I stand for what I've said. Video games and RPG are the same thing. They are games. We buy them and play them to have fun. Companies produce them and sell them for profit. And trust me, the guys who created D&D love the game as much as the guys that produced their videogame consoles.

The way people play those games, what they feel about them, what those games meant to them, you just can't quantify that and use it to prove anything, it depends and varies from person to person. I know D&D players that love when a new edition comes out and video game players that are pissed off when they feel they their consoles are old. So what? What does that prove? Nothing. And the opposite of that proves nothing too.

I was talking about emotions here, not business. You just missed the point.

I posted that because I know some people becomes sad when they feel all those books they bought are useless. They feel robbed and fooled. I just don't think it's fair to put the guilty of that feelings on the companies. People just fool themselves(ok sometime companies fool people...) when they give too much importance and relevance to games. It's a game.

Are they entitled to give as much importance to it as they want to? Sure, but just don't blame someone else when you feel bad about that. Look yourself in the mirror and ask "why did I care so much?"

And IMO, RPG gamers have even less reasons to complain about new version of their products, because RPG games don't become obselete. People can still play them and have the same kind of fun they had when they were the main edition. And RPG is an even cheaper hobby than videogames!

I know there are many passionate answers for what i've just said, but people that play videogame also have their passions. They are not mindless playing drones as we are the romantic/artists filled with feelings and strong emotions. Games are just games.The issue is that gamers ARE gamers.

I knew a guy that slept with his Nintendo. When nintendo released Super Nintendo he felt betrayed and boycotted nintendo for a year. Later he turned to Sega. Then he bought PS and it was the console of his dreams. The ultimate console. Yes, he used to say that, he almost tattooed the buttons on his arm, to fool himself with that nonsense. Than PS 2 came and the guy stopped buying consoles. He wanted something the videogame industry could not give to him.

How 'd you feel about that little story if I had posted it in another thread? Many people would think this is guys is just stupid or nuts. But doesn't he have the same rights that we RPG players have to feel that about the games we love?

Video games and RPGs may be different in some aspects, but many guys that play them are just the same.

So if you feel bad about 4E, don't worry, there are many people out there that felt the same when play 3, and don't you think that your feelings are more legit than theirs. Just do what they can't do as effective as you can, keep playing the game you have and love forever and ever after.
 
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While I may be planning on converting, and many others will, it's a guarantee that people will still be playing 3.5. The only thing that makes RPG books useless is deciding to stop playing them. To put it in perspective: There's still online games playing with D6 Star Wars. Many oWoD games still exist online. I'm sure if you look hard enough there's 2nd edition AD&D games going somewhere.
 

But, I can play an old console game by myself and have fun. Solo D&D...doesn't work so well.

As i said, it's about the feelings involved, not how we play the game.
I also can have fun playing video games alone, but I can't do that with D&D. So what?
Can I feel bad about a new rpg and not bad about a new console because of that? I don't get it.
Listing the differences of both types of games doesn't change what people may or may not feel about them .
 

Ogrork the Mighty said:
It just feels like it's all about profit and how to squeeze every last penny out of gamers.
Once more with feeling: Wizards of the Coast is a business. It exists to make money. If it stops making money, it ceases to exist, and all the game designers it employs become unemployed. They have very clear incentives to make money.

If you don't want to give any more pennies to Wizards, don't. And perhaps move on, as you suggest.
 

MadMaxim said:
It seems like they're rushing it and not thinking it through. They got a total of 5 years worth of feedback and already think they can improve upon it in such ways that it's worth an entirely new edition? I doubt it somewhat...
It may seem like that to some outsiders, but knowing how much they've thought it through is rather difficult, I would suggest.

Recent comments made by some around here that RPG design has advanced more in the last 5 years than it did in the previous 30 has a great deal of validity, IMHO. Besides, I think the feedback they got from 2000 to 2003 counts as well, and hell, you could probably add feedback from 2E and 1E as well, knowing what works there, etc.

I think you're assuming an awful lot about the process that WotC has gone through to this point.
 

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