D&D 5E 'Justice' in 5E

[akr71]

@Flamestrike I needed some confirmation from my gut feeling that the cleric of Ilmater would petition for mercy, but now the village is now basically in a power vacuum. The remaining acolytes at the temple will readily accept the cleric as their new leader to quickly restore order and help the village through the difficult times ahead.

The party escorting the BBEG back to the nearest city for trial may be the best option, regardless of the delay to their 'real' mission. It will also provide them with a chance to check in on their interests there.

@MarkB The deal with the hag is as much my fault as theirs. When they encountered her, she wanted them to take care of the BBEG, but they were waffling and had missed clues. They took me by surprise by asking what they could do for her and what was in it for them. I wasn't very good at thinking on my feet at that moment.

 

[MNblockhead]

In a world where Clerics have proof of an afterlife, capital punishment might be considered a kinder form of justice. It is like the argument that even if justice is flawed and an innocent man is killed, he'll be rewarded in the afterlife. But also, capital punishment can be seen as kinder than other forms of punishment. It can be seen as curing an illness in society and in the individual wrong doer. A lot of smart, good people have defended the justice of capital punishment throughout history. It took time to evolve our thinking and develop the institutions to the point where many countries got rid of it.

Plato considered that death was not the most severe punishment and in fact, was the least of evils. It clears out the most heinous criminals when they are incurable. He saw the death penalty as a civil cleansing. It was also seen as a way to cleanse the unjust man of his injustice. It was not thought to be revenge. Plato was against retributive punishment. Judgment was to be a scientifically designed measure to cure vice, from both the individual and in society.

 

[Flamestrike]

I agree on the night hag front, forgot to mention that.

I also agree that he would likely try to get the BBEG to see the error of their ways. But if that's not happening? Or if there's no way to tell if the BBEG has truly had a change of heart, or will not just go back to their evil ways as soon as released? The only way to stop him from killing more innocents and shedding more blood will likely be execution.

Thats' your view. A LG Priest of a God of mercy and compassion wouldn't see it that way.

If the law of the land was for the evil priest to be executed, the good priest would try and seek to have that sentence commented to life imprisonment (via advocacy and non violence of course). If he was unsuccessful he would have no choice but to grudgingly accept (while still offering the condemned evil priest an opportunity to repent and atone before his death).

 

[Flamestrike]

In a world where Clerics have proof of an afterlife, capital punishment might be considered a kinder form of justice.

Quite the opposite.

Followers of evil gods dying strengthens gods of evil. It's one more petitioner for the Evil God in the afterlife.

Showing them the error of their ways, with compassion, kindness and mercy means the evil God loses that soul, and the Good Gods gain one.

 

[Flamestrike]

@Flamestrike I needed some confirmation from my gut feeling that the cleric of Ilmater would petition for mercy, but now the village is now basically in a power vacuum.

What's the law of the land though? Under whose legal jurisdiction (and protection) does the village fall under?

Is it the law, that upon the death of the headsman/ mayor/ thane or whatever, that the Cleric becomes the head of the town, unelected and unopposed?

You could maybe have the town break into two factions; those faithful to Illmater seeking to have the evildoer spared (and the Priest of Illmater appointed the new chief of the villiage in accordance with the local law in the event of a sudden death of the mayor and his deputy) and those who want to execute the man (unlawfully, via lynching) in revenge.

The lynching party outnumber the good guys.

 

[aco175]

One could argue that the PCs struck a lawful deal with the hag for the information. Then the question becomes, would a LG person stick to the deal struck or violate that deal thinking it will kill someone. Some would argue that is more CG over LG. There are many ways to view this and all would be partially right.

The bigger question is what makes the best plot and moves the story. Maybe the PCs turn the BBEG over to the hag and then the LG priest hires them to get her back from the hag.

 

[Oofta]

Thats' your view. A LG Priest of a God of mercy and compassion wouldn't see it that way.

If the law of the land was for the evil priest to be executed, the good priest would try and seek to have that sentence commented to life imprisonment (via advocacy and non violence of course). If he was unsuccessful he would have no choice but to grudgingly accept (while still offering the condemned evil priest an opportunity to repent and atone before his death).

I'm just relaying how I would run it. Is it mercy to the families and victims who's lives the BBEG will destroy if you let them go? Is it good to set free someone who you know will commit more evil acts? Where's the compassion for the future victims?

There is no prison. There is no way to stop future violence from the BBEG. He has not repented, there's no indication he ever will. If you can stop him and do not, you share responsibility for the blood he will shed.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[Flamestrike]

I'm just relaying how I would run it. Is it mercy to the families and victims who's lives the BBEG will destroy if you let them go? Is it good to set free someone who you know will commit more evil acts? Where's the compassion for the future victims?

That's your reasoning. You're not a LG priest of a god of mercy and compassion.

You cant tell me that a [merciful, kind, compassionate, altruistic] and [honourable, law abiding] priest of [a God of mercy and compassion] agrees to kill the criminal with the above reasoning.

The villagers on the other hand (mainly N with a few E, a few G, a few C and a few L) would certainly use your reasoning (mostly) and many (all the ones that lack a 'G' in their alignment) would want the man put to death.

The Evil villagers (and many neutral ones) would want the man lynched there and then.

The Lawful Neutral villagers would want the full force of the law brought to bear, after a fair trial. The LE ones would want the man executed in a particularly gruesome way, as an example to the others, after a kangaroo court. The LG ones, would be in agreement with the Priest that the mans life should be spared (but he should still suffer the force of the law).

There is no prison.

Put him in chains, and get him to build one. In the meantime he can be locked up in a room somwhere.

Illmater isnt exactly opposed to a bit of hard work.

 

[NotAYakk]

• Lawful means keeping your word.
• Good includes punishing Evil
• Goddess of suffering might be ok with the soul being tortured
• What does the night hag get out of this? More power? Risky.

To do some prep, have a bunch of conflicting positions that the priest could take. Let the players influence (with claims and checks) which of those is dominate. Have plans for how the priest might react if the players don't go along with her (complications) wishes.

Have plausible complications happen regardless of which path the players take.

 

[akr71]

Also, the BBEG had been properly protecting themselves from the night hag's Nightmare Haunting ability. Now captured, the BBEG can't do so. Unless someone is going to cast Protection from Evil or Magic Circle on the BBEG, the hag can visit anytime and eventually use the soul bag to capture the BBEG's soul. Chaining them up in the evil shrine below the temple of Ilmater was for so that the hag had easy access to them.

Execution might be the most compassionate course of action.