Justifying high level 'guards', 'pirates', 'soldiers', 'assassins', etc.

[Delta]

Well I don't see what's different now from earlier editions, just pick any high level old module and you will see a lot of high level guards/mooks. This has been a staple of D&D as long as I can remember.

I'd like to see an example of that in a Gygax 1E adventure.

One thing that was nice in the 1E DMG was tables for city guard/wilderness patrol groups with specific levels attached for soldiers vs. leaders (maxed out at around 8th level for army captains). That set a very nice baseline for what everyone could expect playing AD&D. It looks like that kind of thing is anti-4E-philosophy.

Personally I got highly aggravated when, playing under one DM in 3E, we walk into a random room and there's three 15th-level goblins. I mean, sore the mechanics support that -- but those should be the emporers of 3 different goblin kingdoms surrounded by armies in the tens-of-thousands (compare to leader levels documented in MM), not rolling dice around a fire.

 

[Oni]

Perhaps the player's characters aren't as exponentially badass as they think they are from leveling.

You 2nd level character goes to the city fights and gets in a fight with the guards who are 2nd level minions.

A little while later he comes back as an 8th level character and gets in another dustup with the city guards which are now 8th level minions for some reason

If someone insist on thinking in terms of mechanics and not story it might seem odd, but if from a character perspective consider this. You're a little bit tougher, the guards still pose somewhat of a threat but you've got more ways to deal with them and they're going to have a little harder time bringing you down. Your character isn't going to have any conception of levels, or think it's weird that he can't beat up on the guards now without a care in the world. The mechanics are just there to run the game, not dictate the world.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the rules only need to function relative to the PC's nothing else really matters.

IMO anyway.

 

[Snoweel]

Perhaps the player's characters aren't as exponentially badass as they think they are from leveling.

You 2nd level character goes to the city fights and gets in a fight with the guards who are 2nd level minions.

A little while later he comes back as an 8th level character and gets in another dustup with the city guards which are now 8th level minions for some reason

If someone insist on thinking in terms of mechanics and not story it might seem odd, but if from a character perspective consider this. You're a little bit tougher, the guards still pose somewhat of a threat but you've got more ways to deal with them and they're going to have a little harder time bringing you down. Your character isn't going to have any conception of levels, or think it's weird that he can't beat up on the guards now without a care in the world. The mechanics are just there to run the game, not dictate the world.

IMO anyway.

Great post.

I'm amazed that people still can't grasp this.. levels, hit points, the old Vancian magic system, the current x/day powers system, etc, etc, etc... It's all an abstraction designed to facilitate quick gameplay.

I guess it's the stereotypical geek absolutist empirical mindset at work. Some people just need everything to fit neatly into an absolute structure. I'm often guilty of it myself.

 

[jdrakeh]

How do you justify random guards, assassins, etc. or whatnot being above, say 6th or maybe 8th level?

I don't need to justify them. Luckily, for me, anybody who is familiar with popular media can easily cite examples of such folks across fiction.

For example, a great many espionage novels and films hang entirely upon the trope of a lone assassin or a group of assassins supposedly unmatched by others in the world. Look at almost any Bond film.

Similarly, elite guards are a common fixture in military novels and films, both those set in the present day and in worlds of sci-fi or fantasy. A good example, I think, would be the current television series The Unit.
Also, in both of these types of fiction, the protagonist is almost always set against opponents who can match them blow for blow, not a bunch of petty yahoos.

I suspect that this model for adventure served as a driving force in the design of D&D 4e, as its rules for minions and NPCs both seem to model the aforementioned tropes of adventure fiction.

 

[Benimoto]

I do tend to agree with the OP. Saying that everything is relative to the PCs can only go so far. Part of the fun of playing an RPG is character development, and part of that is watching the numbers go up and expecting that they mean something. If everything stays exactly relative, then those numbers don't really mean much.

I think, that to justify those kinds of high levels among otherwise fairly mundane types of people (guards, pirates, etc.) that you really have to emphasize what is extraordinary about this particular bunch. Like it's been said, just play up how much better this particular group of pirates/assassins/ninjas/monkeys is than is typical. 15th level PCs are high level and their adventures should reflect it.

 

[Snoweel]

I do tend to agree with the OP. Saying that everything is relative to the PCs can only go so far. Part of the fun of playing an RPG is character development, and part of that is watching the numbers go up and expecting that they mean something. If everything stays exactly relative, then those numbers don't really mean much.

Where do you get "exactly relative" from?

Nobody said anything about "exactly relative" - your DM determines just how relative the NPCs are when he assigns levels to them based on how challenging he wants the encounter to be.

Your PCs still get more badass as they level (more powers, meaning more options, for a start) and assuming NPCs don't level at exactly the same rate as the PCs (which should only happen for your super-villains) they will get easier as the PCs level.

So while 1st level town guards might be a mild challenge for your 2nd level party, they will be much less of a challenge for your 10th level party when said guards are 'only' 6th level.

 

[Delta]

If someone insist on thinking in terms of mechanics and not story it might seem odd, but if from a character perspective consider this. You're a little bit tougher, the guards still pose somewhat of a threat but you've got more ways to deal with them and they're going to have a little harder time bringing you down. Your character isn't going to have any conception of levels, or think it's weird that he can't beat up on the guards now without a care in the world. The mechanics are just there to run the game, not dictate the world.

Give me OD&D/Basic/1E over this any day. Once I hit 9th level, I'm recognized as a ruler among men.

As the 40-year-old friend I introduced D&D to said, "If the NPCs all get better at the same rate as me, what's the point?"

 

[fissionessence]

Your character isn't going to have any conception of levels, or think it's weird that he can't beat up on the guards now without a care in the world. The mechanics are just there to run the game, not dictate the world.

OP here. I agree with this to a point, and I think the minion rules are especially good at representing this kind of relativity. As someone said, a solo monster now could be a brute later and a minion after that. I'm okay with this . . . to a point.

However, when PCs enter the paragon tier, non-extraordinary humans, elves, etc., really shouldn't (IMO) even pose enough of a threat to be a minion of equal level. If we applied that theory consistently through epic tier as well, we'd come to a point where these NPCs would pose a threat to Orcus and even the gods themselves, as well as the PCs. This is not something I'm comfortable with.

And to those who justified high level NPCs by saying that they have challenges and gain XP just like PCs do, what are these challenges that they're facing? The PCs continue to go on tougher and tougher adventures in order to increase their power, whereas a town guard or even average knight would reach a plateau; he'd reach a point where there's not really anything nearby that would grant him enough of a challenge to get a significant amount of XP in order to continue leveling. When such a challenge did come along . . . well that should be what the PCs get called in for.

~

 

[Snoweel]

OP here. I agree with this to a point, and I think the minion rules are especially good at representing this kind of relativity. As someone said, a solo monster now could be a brute later and a minion after that. I'm okay with this . . . to a point.

However, when PCs enter the paragon tier, non-extraordinary humans, elves, etc., really shouldn't (IMO) even pose enough of a threat to be a minion of equal level. If we applied that theory consistently through epic tier as well, we'd come to a point where these NPCs would pose a threat to Orcus and even the gods themselves, as well as the PCs. This is not something I'm comfortable with.

I agree that town guards and the like should eventually be level-capped in relation to the PCs, but whether or not they are mechanically a threat to Orcus is irrelevent - NPCs interact as the story (and the DM) dictate.

So when the guards are called to evict Orcus from the pub because he's drunk and rowdy, the DM doesn't need to roll to resolve combat between them - the DM is a busy person - he should just describe Orcus sucking the guards' souls out through their lower intestines (or whatever his primary attack is; I don't have the Monster Manual right in front of me), regardless of the guards' level relative to the PCs. Because between NPCs there are no concrete levels - just relative power as determined by the DM.

And to those who justified high level NPCs by saying that they have challenges and gain XP just like PCs do, what are these challenges that they're facing? The PCs continue to go on tougher and tougher adventures in order to increase their power, whereas a town guard or even average knight would reach a plateau; he'd reach a point where there's not really anything nearby that would grant him enough of a challenge to get a significant amount of XP in order to continue leveling. When such a challenge did come along . . . well that should be what the PCs get called in for.

The DMG makes it clear that not everyone levels the way the PCs do. Hell, most NPCs don't even have a character class.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I'm amazed that people still can't grasp this...

Don't confuse distaste for something with the inability to grasp it.

Generally speaking, I don't. I despise that crap and always have. If you don't want high-level PCs being able to wipe the floor with the city guard, then don't use a game system where the PCs' combat power increases exponentially with level. (Or else ratchet down the PCs' advancement rate, or cap their advancement at a point you're comfortable with.)

In my campaigns, random guards are mooks. Previous to 4E, they were in the level 1-3 range. Now that we have the minion rules, they can be up to level 8-9 minions (but that's for very tough, disciplined soldiers; remember that legion devils start at 6, and any fighting force tougher and more disciplined than legion devils has to be pretty bad-ass).

To me, this is vital for maintaining immersion.

This sums up my feelings quite well.