Keen/Improved Crit

[Scion]

what is a "crit" exactly?

Apparently you are confused.

SRD:
Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is x2.
Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Increased Threat Range: Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is not a threat.
Increased Critical Multiplier: Some weapons deal better than double damage on a critical hit.
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit.


Also, just because you feel that crits are not well defined, and dont have an in game meaning (as well as out of game) it does not mean that it is so.

Crit range stacking is fine according to the numbers. It is fine to have a flavorful way in character to do certain actions (no different than being better at sundering really, or any other special action). It is not unbalanced.

So, in other words, no reason to disallow it.

 

[Methos of Aundair]

I believe critical hits don’t necessarily mean anything more than a normal hit. Criticals are rather rare in our games and only happen a few times a session, and when they do the player tends to roll low on their dice rolls. Often to the point their roll is lower than had they rolled max damage on a normal hit. I thought of making the initial dice roll maxed, such as for a critical hit on a longsword would be 8+Str mod.+1d8+Str mod. In my mind this would make criticals a lot more exciting and entertaining when they happen. I discussed this with my players and they turned it down. Their reason, simple. The same thing goes for the opponents, and often enough the opponents (as in monsters) have a bigger initial damage roll than the players.

As to the initial question, it really doesn't matter to me either way. My players don't munchkin that much, at least not in the ways I see people do on the WizCo site.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The numbers state otherwise through normal ranges outside of those odd things do occur of course, but still.

In "normal ranges", yeah, stacking is not a big deal. As I said, it was not worth fixing in 3.0.

I still say it is not difficult to push outside the normal ranges with 2-handed Power Attack. The key is to get 25% of average damage on a hit be bigger than a ~5.5 damage reduction from giving up a better base damage and d6 energy. Not difficult if you put your mind to it.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I actually like the change. It means that Improved Crit isn't the must-have feat it once was. Now you can get Keen instead, and crit just as often as the fighter with feats to spare.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I like the 3.5 change. I'd rather take Improved Critical, since that way I can use any weapon that I specialized with that I find and still get the bonus.

I think 3.0 had too many crit-based abilities (eg do this on a crit, do that on a crit) and having threat ranges of 12-20 were not helping things.

 

[Mouseferatu]

There's a compromise solution that I've used, for those who care.

Improved Crit or keen improves the crit range, as per the rules.

Improved Crit and keen, in combination, improves the crit range as normal, but also adds that same amount as a bonus to the roll to confirm the crit. Thus, if you have IC for longswords, and you're weilding a keen longsword, the crit range is 17-20, and you have a +2 bonus (since the crit range is 19-20, or 2 numbers) on the confirmation roll.

That way, you don't wind up with truly massive crit ranges, but you still gain some benefit from having both IC and keen on the same weapon.

 

[Scion]

In "normal ranges", yeah, stacking is not a big deal. As I said, it was not worth fixing in 3.0.

I still say it is not difficult to push outside the normal ranges with 2-handed Power Attack. The key is to get 25% of average damage on a hit be bigger than a ~5.5 damage reduction from giving up a better base damage and d6 energy. Not difficult if you put your mind to it.

So a character class based on really pushing the envelope can make it good?

Cool.

Of course there are several whole classes of people immune and a few pretty easy ways to become resistant/immune.

But it sounds like a fun character. Where is the problem?

Also, having them not stack is a lot like not letting bonus to hit from str stack with +'s to hit on the weapon. Same concept really.

 

[Darklone]

Another vote for keen and imp crit stacking. Just watch for every special weapon ability relying on crits and houserule them according to vorpal (especially wounding IIRC).

 

[Felon]

Apparently you are confused.
SRD: Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is x2.
Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
Increased Threat Range: Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is not a threat.
Increased Critical Multiplier: Some weapons deal better than double damage on a critical hit.
Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit.

OK, that's all a textbook definition of how the rules for critical hits work, which pretty much has nothing do with my questioning critical hits as an abstraction, of what it represents in terms of striking a creature's vital organs and inflicting mortal wounds. No copy-and-paste covers that. Guess you were confused.

Also, just because you feel that crits are not well defined, and dont have an in game meaning (as well as out of game) it does not mean that it is so.

Hypocrasy check. You chide me for asserting an opinion as if it were fact...

Crit range stacking is fine according to the numbers. It is fine to have a flavorful way in character to do certain actions (no different than being better at sundering really, or any other special action). It is not unbalanced. So, in other words, no reason to disallow it.

...and then turn around and basically do the same thing. You haven't backed up your position at all, you just say the math is fine, it's not unbalanced, end of story. Now what, pray tell, makes for acceptable numbers? If a character crits 30% of the time, is that "acceptable"?

It's not fine. It's broken. There's good reason to disallow it. LOL, being contrary is easy if you're just smug enough about it.

Also, having them not stack is a lot like not letting bonus to hit from str stack with +'s to hit on the weapon. Same concept really.

Nah, it's a totally different concept. Bad analogy really.

 

[Scion]

OK, that's all a textbook definition of how the rules for critical hits work

Just showing you what the game defines as a crit. We are in the rules forum after all.

Hypocrasy check.

Check your own hypocrasy at the door. I was telling you that just because you feel crits are a certain way does not make it so. The definition for a crit is above, whatever you wish to assign it above and beyond that is your own business. But, a crit is different than a regular hit. The differences are in the quote I gave.

You haven't backed up your position at all, you just say the math is fine, it's not unbalanced, end of story. Now what, pray tell, makes for acceptable numbers? If a character crits 30% of the time, is that "acceptable"?

When you have seen the math run a few dozen times over various boards and threads one tends not to redue the math everytime someone comes in and doesnt want to run a search.

If a character is critting 30% of the time then likely that is how they built the character, with that in mind. Personally, I prefer to allow nonoverpowered builds while trying to keep out those that are without question overpowered.

It's not fine. It's broken.

The numbers say differently. They win.

Nah, it's a totally different concept. Bad analogy really.

Lets see.. skill + natural talent vs skill + weapons talent.

Sounds like a pretty fair comparison to me. They are both plus's to hit, letting them stack is perfectly balanced. Which is very similar to improved crit and keen.

If you wish to say it is unbalanced, and dont wish to search for threads that prove otherwise, feel free to go through the numbers.