Kelemvor

[Mecheon]

The Wall is also tied to one of Mrykul's Get Back from being Dead schemes in the best sort of way

Basically he gets to be a completely evil jerk, because no one is really going to argue about him taking souls that don't believe in gods and shoving them in a wall to suffer for all eternity. There's... A big ol' thread going on at the moment about it and its current existence, but there's no questioning why Mrykul made it in the first place

Whenever it really comes to the Wall and its existence, the best source I can recommend is Neverwinter Nights 2, Mask of the Betrayer. Its no Planescape: Torment, but its close

 

[Celtavian]

This thread is definitely flame bait to start up the whole Wall of the Faithless endless debate again. This could have been posted in that thread.

 

[thallantyr]

Myrkul was evil. The Wall makes no thematic sense and is boring, but at least building it is in character for Myrkul. Kelemvor isn't supposed to be evil, but there he is makin' soul bricks.

On the contrary, I think the Wall absolutely makes sense in a polytheistic religious setting, where gods compete for worshippers. For starters, it incentivises mortals to pick a god, so it benefits deities of every alignment. Even with the good gods, worship is a matter of a mutually beneficial relationship. Mortals get divine magic and answered prayers, gods get power (unless deities' powers don't rely on the size of their flocks in 5E, I can't remember) and prestige.

For context, look at Greek and Roman religious practices. Even the most benevolent gods, like Hestia/Vesta, still required sacrificing to. Each city had its patron god(s), to whom they would dedicate elaborate festivals and grand temples to ensure their benefactor's continued protection. The Forgotten Realms just have a more intimate, and much more direct and tangible, version of that with the Wall.

 

[Pauper]

I thought Shadowdale was a pretty interesting book, for a genre book at least. The author seemed to recognize that Adon, the pretty-boy cleric of Sune, was pretty much going to be a one-note character, and so decided to set up a potential love triangle between Midnight, Kelemvor, and Cyric. Yes, Cyric was (again, for the genre) a fairly nuanced character in the first book and for a bit into the second. He definitely had the potential to be an interesting anti-hero, over a decade before it became popular to write anti-heroes into Realms fiction (Aravis Cale, Artemis Entreri**, etc.)

** - Yes, I know that Artemis is older than Cyric in the fiction; Artemis also didn't start out as an anti-hero, but as Drizzt's straight-up antagonist.

Then Cyric found the god-killer sword, and it was Face Heel Turn ahoy!

I'll agree with the professed depiction of Kelemvor, though -- never really been a fan.

--
Pauper

P.S.: Should be noted that these days, referring to the books as the 'Avatar Series' is likely going to cause confusion.

 

[Tia Nadiezja]

I didn't know there was a thread about the Wall. Doesn't matter much, though, because the main point here was Kelemvor the person, not Kelemvor the soulmason. His soulmasonry is tertiary.

Shadowdale was pretty good, and definitely by far the best of the series.

I... totally forget that the Airbender thing exists. That seems like a fandom that would be right up my alley, but I never fell into it.

 

[was]

...I'd disagree with the Kelemvor hate. Kelemvor was designed as a neutral, and impartial, judge of the dead. He's was not intended to be a flamboyant, or impulsive, deity. No, he doesn't bring the sibling drama of Hades or the defiant goth vibe of the Raven Queen. But for what he was designed to be, he fills his role well. There are a ton of other FR gods out there if you're looking for a specific style, flair or disfunctional behavior. IMO, it's good to have a few solid/stable deities in a pantheon.

...Kelemvor evolved over time as a deity. Read "Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad" for more information.

 

[I'm A Banana]

On the contrary, I think the Wall absolutely makes sense in a polytheistic religious setting, where gods compete for worshippers. For starters, it incentivises mortals to pick a god, so it benefits deities of every alignment. Even with the good gods, worship is a matter of a mutually beneficial relationship. Mortals get divine magic and answered prayers, gods get power (unless deities' powers don't rely on the size of their flocks in 5E, I can't remember) and prestige.

For context, look at Greek and Roman religious practices. Even the most benevolent gods, like Hestia/Vesta, still required sacrificing to. Each city had its patron god(s), to whom they would dedicate elaborate festivals and grand temples to ensure their benefactor's continued protection. The Forgotten Realms just have a more intimate, and much more direct and tangible, version of that with the Wall.

I mean, we've been over this in another thread, but since that thing is massive, here's the high level: if Kelemvor and the Wall wanted to be like Greek or Roman Polytheism, it wouldn't be a punishment for Joe the Dragonborn Who Thinks Gods Are Dumb, it'd be a punishment for the gods themselves (and similarly legendary figures) for crimes against the pantheon as a whole. Like, Mystara's murderer might wind up there, or whoever started the Time of Troubles might end up there, or the Primordials from the 4e Realms might end up there. Then it might be like Tarterus, and be OK, instead of being more like Christian Hell and being kind of nonsense.

 

[Mephista]

...Kelemvor evolved over time as a deity. Read "Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad" for more information.

You're assuming we haven't, and don't find the end result to be repugnant. Kelemvor still needs to be slapped. He evolved for a supposed need that, when all is said and done, the FR doesn't need. As far as I'm concerned, he's dead weight.

There's no need for a judge of the dead in FR, because each individual god chooses who they take into their personal heavens and hells. The gods swoop down and pick up their worshipers before Kelemvor even gets a chance to do anything. He just has to deal with the ones that don't have gods which, in light of how the Realms work, is a very small percentage of people.

The Raven Queen and Hades make sense in their respective mythologies, because they're in charge of all the souls of the people who die in their respective mythologies. R.Q. guides the souls wherever they go when they die, and Hades arranges for Elysium or Tarturus for the Greco-Roman believers. In FR, ALL the gods get involved, leaving Kelemvor sitting there on his hands.

 

[was]

You're assuming we haven't, and don't find the end result to be repugnant.

...I made no such assumptions about anybody. I merely pointed out that Kelemvor had changed over time and provided an additional source information.

There's no need for a judge of the dead in FR, because each individual god chooses who they take into their personal heavens and hells. The gods swoop down and pick up their worshipers before Kelemvor even gets a chance to do anything. He just has to deal with the ones that don't have gods which, in light of how the Realms work, is a very small percentage of people.

...Things to consider:

1. In FR, souls of the faithful are not usually instantly picked up by their deities when they die on Toril. The souls make their way to the Fugue Plain where they gather and are then picked up by their deities' servants in groups. With no death god watching over them, they become subject to predation by demons, devils, hags...etc..

2. The number of false and faithless souls in the realm of the dead that have died over the millenia is not small in number.

3. Having a death god provides a final chance for a soul to 'opt out' if they become disillusioned with their deity (i.e. dying poorly or facing eternal torment in their god's domain).

 

[Mephista]

1. Still no need. Simply send some angels, fae, or others to do the work.
2. False could be handled by the god the soul was false to, and faithless be handled by those with a portfolio closest to the faithless' life. IE - a faithless petty tyrant would fall under Bane's control to deal with.
3. You easily can still opt out with devils or demons - they send you to oblivion fast enough, and the Wall isn't painless either.