D&D 5E (2014) Killed Me a Lawful Stupid Paladin

[Ancalagon]

.... why is the paladin, or lawful aspect, have anything to do with this story?

If the PC had been a chaotic neutral fighter, would the story be any different?

 

[Krachek]

I don’t think the alignment nor the oath is to blame here.

 

[Mannahnin]

It does feel like a bit of a misnomer.

Lawful Stupid was classically a term for a Lawful character played as a giant stick in the mud and pain in the ass over points of law, rules, order, and chivalric stupidity like refusing to retreat or be stealthy when it was called for. Shades of the ridiculous code of conduct for Cavaliers in 1st ed Unearthed Arcana come to mind. And innumerable arguments in the letters pages/Forum of Dragon Magazine debating alignment and talking about bad players or DMs requiring Paladins and lawful types to act like idiots out of a misconceived sense of what alignment requires.

Maybe there were details at the table we're missing about the player making it some absurd point of honor in his code or oath. Either way, it mostly just sounds like bad play.

I do sympathize with Zardnaar's desire to have the situation play out logically based on what would be there in the game world, and let the player's bad choices have consequences.

Depending on the group, it might not be a big deal to spend 20 or 30 minutes on the RP encounter and duel, and could be entertaining. But if it derailed the session, I think I agree with some of the other posters that another approach might have been better. For example either Baldar's idea of having the NPC shrug off his insults, dismiss him and walk off into the city (setting up a rival/enemy for later), or resolving it quickly with the three-rounds-of-attacks resolution GMMichael suggested. Both seem like good, expedient approaches which don't let the session get derailed.

Some good constructive ideas there, for a session which seems like didn't go exactly as Zardnaar or the players wanted.

 

[Iry]

Paladins hate boats. It's a well known fact.

 

[Zardnaar]

Did the "Paladin" bit really play any major part in the player's decision process? I've seen plenty of prideful players who'd do something equally reckless in response to some real or imagined slight, regardless of character class or alignment.

Not really. Just being special.

 

[Arvok]

A Deadly Encounter for a 5th level character is 1,100 XP. A Gladiator is worth 1,800 XP.
A DM does not get a cookie, for creating a solo challenge that is 164% of a Deadly Encounter, and killing a character.

While I agree with a most of what you're saying, I take issue with this. It's one thing if a DM leads PCs into an unbalanced encounter, but in this case it sounds like the PC picked a fight he couldn't win. I don't think it's the DM's job to make sure PCs don't suffer the consequences of stupid decisions (maybe keep the entire party from suffering the consequences of one player's stupid decisions, but that's another matter).

In the real world, if you pick a fight with a guy about your size he is not obligated to let you know he's a professional boxer or MMA fighter before he pounds you into the pavement. It sounds like the PC agreed to a deadly duel. Even if the two were evenly matched, there's a 50/50 chance the PC ends up dead. This seems like a really bad call given the lack of reward for a success.

 

[Istbor]

While I agree with a most of what you're saying, I take issue with this. It's one thing if a DM leads PCs into an unbalanced encounter, but in this case it sounds like the PC picked a fight he couldn't win. I don't think it's the DM's job to make sure PCs don't suffer the consequences of stupid decisions (maybe keep the entire party from suffering the consequences of one player's stupid decisions, but that's another matter).

In the real world, if you pick a fight with a guy about your size he is not obligated to let you know he's a professional boxer or MMA fighter before he pounds you into the pavement. It sounds like the PC agreed to a deadly duel. Even if the two were evenly matched, there's a 50/50 chance the PC ends up dead. This seems like a really bad call given the lack of reward for a success.

I think the problem comes about that in D&D if you were an individual that had become that powerful (CR 5), they wouldn't tend to be guards to any old ship captain. We're talking the same CR as a Hill Giant. That is a tough cookie. Why are they hanging around on this ship? How have they not been promoted or plucked up into the entourage of an admiral or rich noble? Does this guy really just sit around on a ship all day watching this Captain? It creates a lot of questions, because it doesn't typically make a lot of sense to have that strong of a bodyguard for an NPC of that stature. Unless there is a big chunk of context missing, and this Captain is far more important than the OP lets on. Then yeah... if you messed with Captain Blood's thick-armed bodyguard, who is known for snapping spines, you deserve to get knocked around.

 

[Zardnaar]

Zard, was this the same player you posted about, whom wanted to select a race for his PC that you objected to?

I hope not, else I am afraid the tale the "meta data" shows is you got annoyed by a player, and then Bounty DM'd and collected a scalp.

Bounty DM-ing is not praiseworthy, quite the opposite, in fact.
No cookie for you.

If this was a different player, that missed session 0...then I guess you made your point:
"Do everything the DM says, and play your character only in the manner the DM expects".

As a middle aged player, with 40 years invested into the game, I certainly don't want to play in a game with either a Bounty Hunter DM nor a DO IT MY WAY DM.
I don't mind a fair, but hard assed DM...but Zard, is it possible the stress of this challenging time, might be influencing your refereeing?

What you described in your post, does not read like a Gold Medal DM performance.
To use the Ancient Greek archery term for "Missing the Mark", it read like a sin...that perhaps you missed the real target a DM should aim for.

A Deadly Encounter for a 5th level character is 1,100 XP. A Gladiator is worth 1,800 XP.
A DM does not get a cookie, for creating a solo challenge that is 164% of a Deadly Encounter, and killing a character.

Do you seek praise for punching infants?

NO COOKIE FOR YOU.

Yes same player.

He got told it was a gladiator and elite guard. "Our best gladiators".

He was also the one who insisted to the death.

They actually cut the other ship off lol. Other captain was slightly annoyed but didn't pick the fight.

There was no other combat in the session.

The boat was a emissary from the Elven imperium.
On the wharf they got off the boat with a pair of battle ogres and a dozen elite guards.

The shops captain was on the wharf, there were some slaves carrying a pallinquin.

Basically the sailor PC was showing off and out piloted the half elf captain and also "stole" the berth at the dock.

Elves have a fast cutter but the sailor rolled will.

Said empire is one of the great powers kinda in decline but still in the top 3 nation's.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think the problem comes about that in D&D if you were an individual that had become that powerful (CR 5), they wouldn't tend to be guards to any old ship captain. We're talking the same CR as a Hill Giant. That is a tough cookie. Why are they hanging around on this ship? How have they not been promoted or plucked up into the entourage of an admiral or rich noble? Does this guy really just sit around on a ship all day watching this Captain? It creates a lot of questions, because it doesn't typically make a lot of sense to have that strong of a bodyguard for an NPC of that stature. Unless there is a big chunk of context missing, and this Captain is far more important than the OP lets on. Then yeah... if you messed with Captain Blood's thick-armed bodyguard, who is known for snapping spines, you deserve to get knocked around.

They are basically imperial guard. See previous post.

It was a diplomatic mission the half elf told them they were the empires finest gladiators.

The race were Ja Din similar to kreen.

If I put a CR16 dragon into the game and I he PCs pick a fight with it I don't lower the CR to their level as they're not supposed to fight it.

They could have ignored them in the dock, didn't have to challenge to the death, didn't have to turn up to have the fight.

 

[MarkB]

I think the problem comes about that in D&D if you were an individual that had become that powerful (CR 5), they wouldn't tend to be guards to any old ship captain. We're talking the same CR as a Hill Giant. That is a tough cookie. Why are they hanging around on this ship? How have they not been promoted or plucked up into the entourage of an admiral or rich noble? Does this guy really just sit around on a ship all day watching this Captain? It creates a lot of questions, because it doesn't typically make a lot of sense to have that strong of a bodyguard for an NPC of that stature. Unless there is a big chunk of context missing, and this Captain is far more important than the OP lets on. Then yeah... if you messed with Captain Blood's thick-armed bodyguard, who is known for snapping spines, you deserve to get knocked around.

I don't really see the logic in this. We don't know that this was "any old ship captain", and naval crews are certainly an area where I'd expect to see a lot of variance of NPC levels, given that they can encompass anything from the low-level merchant vessel to the epic-level dread pirate.

And nobody just sits around when they're ship's crew. Just because they're assigned to guard the captain when the ship's in port, that doesn't mean they don't have other duties when they're under sail. Or maybe the ship carries a contingent of Marines - certainly not unusual if it's a military vessel.